c1095 rod replacement

You could try substituting O1 drill rod.

You could try substituting 1045-1050 rod, the surface hardness won't be quite as high, but it should work.

Excellent comment; i'd probably use O-1 myself. Although W-1 drill rod is a more direct substitute.

Hello raggededgge,

I'm not sure if you are looking for round rod or flat stock. Admiral Steel,

http://www.admiralsteel.com/products/200/cra1095.html lists this grade in the annealed condition. I'm not sure about their minimum quantities.

McMaster-Carr http://www.mcmaster.com/ lists 1045 in rounds and 1075 in flats. Maybe one of these alloys will work for you.

By the way, what are you restoring?

Rorschach and wingnut have given you great answers.

I remain concerned that at some point you are going to try to weld said 1095 / drill rod to attach it.

It is too high of hardenability to weld properly without both pre and postheat treating, regardless of section.

There will be a crack generated , bot in the weld, but adjacent to it.

As long as you aren't ultimately welding you're OK.

milo

If you want to make your own rod by heating and bending a good way to temper after hardening is to use molten lead. By bringing straight lead up to melting point and holding the steel in it for a good heatsoak and then quenching it in light oil, the temper works out pretty good. I have been doing my gun springs like this for years.

Rex Dev.

Molten lead for tempering.......You gunsmith guys are full of neat tricks!! Good job for outside on a crisp autumn day.

BTW, check out the blacksmith and knifemaker communities. They often have good sources and tricks that are foreign to the industrial world.

Seems to me that the torsion style hood springs on the early 60's Plymouth Valients and Dodge Darts were made of a thin round bar some 4 feet long. IIRC it was more like 3/8" diameter than 5/16". Material? Could have been 1095 or maybe one of the lower carbon steels. The automakers seldom concern themselves over multi-ton minimum orders for parts manufacture.

I'll bet some blacksmith might know or might have some other obscure source for 5/16" dia 1095 or something close. These guys have all kinds of forums and blogging sites where there are lots of good contacts.

Another subculture to touch is the fellows who build live steam locomotives, you know, the kind you ride on that you spend half a lifetime constructing. They have to build their own springs for the locomotive suspensions although most go with leaf springs in the locos. But they do use heavy coil springs in the trucks under their railroad cars. Someone has to make those springs.

I'd also hunt up small job shops in the business of making special springs for industrial customers. We have a couple like that in the San Jose, CA area. I suspect there will be at least one such in every major industrial center in the US. These guys have lots of special sources for spring wire and you may even get lucky and find one with some 1095 material on the shelf he'd be willing to sell you.

Ed Weldon

Hello raggededgge:

If you could tell me where you are I can find a place closer to you?

Can you also say whether you want blue steel, crome etc?

Good luck with the restoration! And how about some 'in progress' pics?

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&rlz=1T4GGLJ_enGB294GB294&q=c+1095+spring+steel+rod&meta=

Take care...........

The reason you can get away with a lower carbon steel is because without significant alloying elements, the depth at which you can obtain a good hardening is limited, and there is little additional gain to carbon content above about .5 or so without those elements.

You can obtain virtually the same effect by using a lower carbon steel (around .20% carbon) and then carburizing it. An easy way to do that is to crush some charcoal briquettes into small crumbs/powder and put the part to be carburized in a 321 or 309 stainless steel foil packet (you can buy the foil at MSC, Mcmaster, and other places just for this purpose.) packed tightly in the crumbled charcoal to get as much air out as possible. Fold the seams up tight to keep air out of it. Then build a hot fire in a BBQ pit using more charcoal and put the packet right down in the fire. Keep adding fresh charcoal to the fire as it burns down for 12-72 hours depending on the thickness of the part and the thickness of the case desired. This will do two things, it will help temper any untempered Austenite created when you heated the rod to bend it, converting it to Martensite, and it will allow additional carbon to diffuse into the surface of the part, giving you a nice hard case. This is called pack carburizing. This will result in a very hard, wear resistant part with a tough crack resistant core. Take it out of the packet and dunk it in oil to quench it while it is still hot. if you want to keep it from corroding, parkerize it, then put it back in hot oil to let the oil soak into the pores of the parkerizing. You can buy parkerizing kits at most gunsmith supply stores.

Careful here.

"This will do two things, it will help temper any untempered Austenite created when you heated the rod to bend it, "

Untempered martensite, actually. Austenite is solid solution of one or more elements in face centered cubic iron. It does not need tempering, it is natural phase at temperature involved during heating.

Martensite is highly strained due to the diffusionless transformation, thus the need for tempering.

I do not see that any temper step has been suggested for after the oil quench after pack carburizing. IS that intentional? It is typical practice to use a low temperature (300 degrees F Temper to relieve quenching strains, if a double quench process is not employed for case or core refinement.)

I would never suggest replacing 1% carbon grade with .20 % carbon based on a surface case hardening unless I was fully aware of all facts regarding the application.

So far on this thread, some of us have read this as a spring, when the origginal poster termed it a support to be heated and bent.

I realize that people love to throw fire at steel, but right now, the answer for the availability of 1095 equivalents has been given. The rest of this is quite interesting, but not necessarily helpful, or safe given possible consequences of failure in the application given the facts so far.

If they used 1095, then i'd stay in that family.

milo

oops, you're right. mea culpa I did mean Martensite. The soak in hot oil after parkerizing would have served as the tempering step as well.

Hello raggededgge:

Tool Steels

W1 also sometimes found as 1095 and as "Water hardening drill rod."

This is the basic old-line blacksmithing tool steel. For many applications, it remains one of the best steels for the blacksmith. It is defined as a cold work tool steel, since it loses its hardness at hot metal temperature -- and therefore is not a hot working tool steel. It still is a good steel for making punches and cold cuts. I like it for things like "eye" punches. You just have to remember to cool it after each use to avoid drawing the temper.

babybear, you are right, W1 IS C1095 with the addition of .35% max of Silicon. I forgot all about that.

Hello Rorschach:

no problems my friend.

I found it by accident on a blacksmiths page.

I was searching for any other 'Official' grade other than the one on the OP.

Take care...........And thanks for the post

Hello raggededgge:

as you see the c1095, is also known as 'W1', and the second site listed here says they do small quantities.

Good luck

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Hello raggededgge:

Just read through Milo's and the rest and there is some great advice there. Some interesting choices anf, the Gunsmith (sorry I forgot your name) is real neat!

Good luck..........

Hello Everyone out

I want to thank everyone for their answers I love this site real world solutions and neat tricks.

I live in Grand Junction Co. Right now all I have is a whole bunch of rusty bits and pieces will post some pictures when I have something that resembles a bike.

The part is the underlying support for the leather saddle on the bike the bike being a 1929 Indian

Thanks again everyone

Hello raggededgge:

A great Bike! Never seen it in front of me, but have seen pic where my grandad was astride an Indian Motorcycle. That would have been in the fifties.

Hello Babybear

I am going with the W1 it is easily procurable.

Do you know what the .35% silicon does?

Thanks Again

it increases strength.

http://www.engr.ku.edu/~rhale/ae510/steel/sld017.htm

It is added as a deoxidizer so the steel will not have big bubbles in it like cheap bread.

Will not affect you at all, in that it is added to all high carbon steels for that purpose.

milo

Hello Milo,

Brilliantly detail explanation! I have not been up for long so your detail was probably read ages ago!

Thanks. My dad worked in the mills, so i learned about this growing up, then worked in themills myself to putmyself through college, then ran the lab, then ran the mill.

(short version)

I can still taste many of these things from my days shovelling spillage or unloading rail cars or making additions around the furnace

milo

Hello Milo,

Sound like you have lived a very busy, and interesting life thus far!

I find it fascinating how a good percentage of the products in the world, started off at the bottom of a furnace.

Metal, glass, oil products, and ceramics are the things which we touch and use everyday.

Thumbs up to you Milo!

Hello Milo,

Just to say, I would not mind the long version! I never knew my Granddad but, he was also 'in the mills', until they shut and he had to go on the 'Jarro-March' from Tyneside to London because there was no work up there.

Take care Milo............

Hello Milo,

here is the detail I mentioned. And I never knew my granddad, and I got the reason for the March wrong. It seems he had not lost work because the mills shut. He was actually asking for a mill to be opened, at least that is what I understand.

The Jarrow Crusade

By Christine Collette

The Jarrow crusade on the march

In 1936, mass unemployment and extreme poverty in the north-east of England drove 200 men to march in protest from Jarrow to London. Their MP, Ellen Wilkinson was with them as they came south to petition parliament. Christine Collette remembers the men and their champion, 'Red Ellen'.

Jarrow

In October 1936, a group 200 men from the north-eastern town of Jarrow marched 300 miles to London. They wanted Parliament, and the people in the south, to understand that they were orderly, responsible citizens, but were living in a region where there were many difficulties, and where there was 70 per cent unemployment - leading one of the marchers to describe his home town in those days as '...a filthy, dirty, falling down, consumptive area.'

The men were demanding that a steel works be built to bring back jobs to their town, as Palmer's shipyard in Jarrow had been closed down in the previous year. The yard had been Jarrow's major source of employment, and the closure compounded the problems of poverty, overcrowding, poor housing and high mortality rates that already beset the town. Ellen Wilkinson, the local MP, later wrote that Jarrow at that time was:

''There was no work...''

'... utterly stagnant. There was no work. No one had a job except a few railwaymen, officials, the workers in the co-operative stores, and a few workmen who went out of the town... the plain fact [is] that if people have to live and bear and bring up their children in bad houses on too little food, their resistance to disease is lowered and they die before they should.' (The Town that was Murdered, 1939).

Hello Milo,

A GA on its way. Good Explanation my friend!

Milo-- Your detailed comments on tools steels are not only a good answer but a keeper. What's a "keeper"? It's a forum posting that I cut and paste into a work document and save and print out for future reference. In this case it will go into my "steel" notebook.

Ed Weldon

A good technique!

I still have the ones I put together as a jr. metallurgist.

Since I made em, I know whats in em.

Thanks for the positive comments,Ed.

milo

Hello Ed Weldon:

So now I know what a 'keeper' is. I to have 'keept' it also!

Hello raggededgge:

I don't know....................there I is just poodling along and you through a word like 'procurable' in the pot. I can't even say it!

Yes easy to find. I guess it has to be as where I am I know of at least four 'smithies'.

Will get back to you on the Silicon.

OK raggededgge:? Your explanation just about fully detailed, by Milo!

Take care...............