Previous in Forum: Cable Manufacturers   Next in Forum: Is IEE's Data on Effects of Electric Shock Accurate?
Close
Close
Close
10 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Participant

Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1

Harmonics

11/21/2008 9:45 AM

Can somebody explain to me, how exactly does the voltage increase to dangerous levels for the equipment at some reasonance points. I've read that if the load current has a characteristic harmonic corresponding to the resonance frequency, then the voltage at that point will increase. How does this happen???

Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Guru
Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: El Lago, Texas, USA
Posts: 2639
Good Answers: 65
#1

Re: Harmonics

11/21/2008 10:05 AM

It's the magic of tuned circuits.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RLC_circuit

Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4448
Good Answers: 143
#2

Re: Harmonics

11/21/2008 10:58 AM

Yep. I recommend taking a function generator, a power amp, a scope and a tuned circuit and just playing with it. Nothing beats seeing it.

__________________
"Well, I've wrestled with reality for 35 years, Doctor, and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it." Elwood P. Dowd
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: May 2008
Location: San Jose, CA, USA
Posts: 121
Good Answers: 2
#3

Re: Harmonics

11/21/2008 12:50 PM

If you have a series circuit involving R (resistance), C (capacitance) and L (inductance), the total voltage drop along the circuit is obtained by adding the voltage drops along the R,L,C portions. But since there is a phase difference between voltages along R,L,C, those cannot be added arithmetically, but geometrically (that means that the total sum is less than the sum of the components). An ideal capacitance Xc(no R component) is oriented at 90 degrees from the resistance, while the inductance XL is oriented also at 90 degrees but in the opposite direction.

Since both XL and XC are dependent on the frequency, there is a frequency at which the 2 components neutralize themselves (XL = XC). This is the resonance frequency.

Since XC = XL can occur at any value of L and C (very high or very low, but at a resultant frequency), the same resonance frequency implying only that L*C = constant, the voltage along XC (UC = I * XC) (and also along XL) (UL = I * XL) can be very high, much greater than the voltage measured at the circuit terminals (U = I * Z = I * R).

As an example, for a voltage U = 120V, and a frequency of 60 Hz, the series circuit consists of a resistance R = 2 ohm, an inductance XL= 10 ohm and a capacitance XC = 10 ohm. The resulting current I = 120/2 = 60A. For a series circuit, the current is the same along all components. So the voltage measured along XL and also XC is:

UL = I*XL = 10 * 60 = 600V equal (but in the opposite direction) to UC = I*XC = 10 * 60 = 600V.

__________________
Scientes et audaces fortuna juvat !
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Power-User
Hobbies - HAM Radio - New Member United States - Member - New Member Hobbies - Hunting - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 440
Good Answers: 7
#4
In reply to #3

Re: Harmonics

11/21/2008 7:23 PM

Sorry--I want eaves drop on this thread--Sounds interesting.

__________________
Those who believe in telekinetics, raise my hand --Kurt Vonnegut Jr.
Register to Reply
Guru
New Zealand - Member - Interested in everything- see my Profile please APIX Pilot Plant Design Project - Member - Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - Member Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - Member Engineering Fields - Civil Engineering - Member Hobbies - Musician - Autoharp and Harmonica Hobbies - Hunting - Member Hobbies - Fishing - Member

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Christchurch, (The Garden City), South Island, New Zealand
Posts: 4395
Good Answers: 230
#5

Re: Harmonics

11/21/2008 11:16 PM

Hello ngcamub

A simple example should suffice.

Consider a child on a swing, and you are pushing the swing periodically.

If you time your push to the resonant frequency of the swing (A Pendulum) the push adds to the kinetic energy, and the swing goes higher and higher, because there needs to be only a small amount of input energy from each push to increase swing momentum.

If, however, you push randomly, that swing is not going to increase momentum very much.

Thus it is with resonant tuned circuits, and is the way that radio waves can be impressed onto telephone lines, while filters keep the audio frequency of the telephone from interfering with the radio waves.

Thus too, Power-line carrier circuits can take voice frequency signals (telephone talking)on EHV (110kV upwards) circuitry without the people using the telephones becoming turned into charred carbon - tuned resonant filters keep the High Voltage out of the telephone circuitry.

Basically, Resonance is caused by the timed arrival of a "push" which adds to the energy level of the system, whether that "push" force is electrical, mechanical, or other force.

In the radio field, resonance is used to correctly size transmitting antennas, circuits, transmission lines, tuners and the like.

In the mechanical field, resonance is used for grandfather clocks (pendulum), mechanical watches (escapement) and other purposes.

Harmonics can be extremely destructive, in a manner similar to resonantly pushing that child on the swing until the swing plus child goes right over the top of the overhead support bar and down the other side.

If you're still wondering, reply here.

Kind Regards....

__________________
"The number of inventions increases faster than the need for them at the time" - SparkY
Register to Reply Score 1 for Off Topic
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2550
Good Answers: 103
#6

Re: Harmonics

11/21/2008 11:27 PM

The matter is quite simple, Both the capacitor and the Inductance of the circuit store energy, only at opposite phases ie when one discharges energy stored, other starts storing. The rate (or frequency) of this phenomenon is governed by wL = 1/wC So in a perfect resistance free circuit, the stored energy is circulating inside these two components (the resistance in circuit slowly dissipates this into heat energy) In a circuit connected to power source, this exchange dowe not matter since over a time, the energy inflow and outflow equates. However if the power supply frequency equals this frequency then the system keeps on adding the energy, ie let us say when the capacitor is being charged by inductor, it is getting additionally charged by the power supply, and this hapens in every cycle and the energy keeps on increasing in the storage (L or C) This is the resonance (in fact in our early classes may be some 35 years back we have been taught this by tunig fork-piano wire example)

__________________
Fantastic ideas for a Fantastic World, I make the illogical logical.They put me in cars,they put me in yer tv.They put me in stereos and those little radios you stick in your ears.They even put me in watches, they have teeny gremlins for your watches
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1758
Good Answers: 6
#7

Re: Harmonics

11/22/2008 3:48 PM

Series Resonent circuit @ fo is called Accepter Cct. & has zero ZO, so across L & C individually will be theoratically infinite voltage, but opposite in phase.

Regards

Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: May 2008
Location: San Jose, CA, USA
Posts: 121
Good Answers: 2
#9
In reply to #7

Re: Harmonics

11/24/2008 12:23 PM

Hajee,

I think that, since XL = 2* pi * f * L and thus UL = I * XL can be infinite only if L = infinite and conversely XC = 1/ (2 * pi * f * C) with UC = I * XC = infinite only if C = 0, for I <>0. This is considering ideal L and C (no resistive component).

Do you consider a purely L-C circuit without R ? For such circuit I = infinite. and theoretically UC = UL = infinite.

__________________
Scientes et audaces fortuna juvat !
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1758
Good Answers: 6
#10
In reply to #9

Re: Harmonics

11/25/2008 8:40 PM

Regards.

Exactly if considering R= 0. due to zero R Infinite current flows So XL*I or XC* =

? Infinite. Theoratically!

As Xl & Xc are opposite to each other so the Impedance = zero & considering of the circuit zero the current @ fo = infinite.

infinite * anything [except zero] is infinite & Xl & Xc has finite values & = @ fo so

Xl * Infinite = infinite & Xc * infinite = infinite.

or practically voltage across C & L will be very-Hi but opposite in phase.

Acceptor circuit are SHORT-CIRCUITs & source may be damaged if series resistor is not present.

This is a general concept, but in practice R never =s zero.

Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: West Virginia
Posts: 185
Good Answers: 12
#8

Re: Harmonics

11/23/2008 6:52 PM

Everyone is talking about resonant circuits. If you happen to be experiencing harmonics relating to power lines or loads associated with 3 phase power, you need totaly different advice. Could you provide more information about the issue that got you looking into this?

Register to Reply
Register to Reply 10 comments

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

bhankiii (1); Haajee (2); Kilgore Trout (1); Rebuilt (1); sb (1); Sparkstation (1); tomad (2); TVP45 (1)

Previous in Forum: Cable Manufacturers   Next in Forum: Is IEE's Data on Effects of Electric Shock Accurate?

Advertisement