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Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/03/2008 2:42 PM

I have been looking for some kind of standards for drawing layouts, but all I get is books on 3D drawing mechanical design or for building services.

Is there any standard for the presentation of layouts?

What about standards for 3D facility models?

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#1

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/03/2008 3:32 PM

Try to get your hands on a copy of ASME Y14 - it is the standard for engineering drawing practices. There are several sections that cover drawing layouts and revisions, and almost anything you can imagine. Not sure about 3D model presentation - in my mind that is still an informal method to demonstrate conceptual methods, not a way to communicate specific information required to manufacture a part. Unfortunately, the ASME standards are only available for purchase, and they're a little on the spendy side for a full set. Perhaps a colleague has a set you can reference or you can find them in a library. Short of that, some textbooks from 20 or 30 years ago may give you what you're looking for. Good luck!

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#2

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/04/2008 12:46 AM

May be you know but in case not:you can download legal and free software very easy to learn and beautiful to draw anything in 3d, Google SketchUp have a lot of examples for good layouts, etc.I should try that source.No for contruction or mechanics,so you need that what for?.(Before i forget tell you:Gomindustria and Bivort,both are very good suppliers in Baires)

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#9
In reply to #2

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/04/2008 11:35 AM

Thanks, I have heard of Sketchup. I have it in my to-do list, but currently I can't go through that learning curve. I prefer to use AutoCAD 2007 in the meanwhile.

I know hw to draw. What I really need is to be able to effectively communicate through drawings, speaking the same language as Architects and Civil Engineers.

I need to draft for construction.

Thanks, I will check Bivort.

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#3

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/04/2008 3:22 AM

Hello and welcome agiangussosa:

Can you tell me a couple of things please?

Do you want to draw with a pencil and ruler 2D?

And do you want to draw buildings/

Flat type design like wallpaper

What do you want. And you say in your post you keep getting can packages.

Well, if you ask for standards for 3D facility models. That is what you will get my friend.

Now, tell me exactly what you want.

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#5
In reply to #3

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/04/2008 9:25 AM

No, I want to use CAD. I draw building and machinery.

Until now I have been doing this the way I feel it, but looking at layouts done by Civil Engineers and Architects I think I am not doing things right. Theirs look much prettier!

The books I have read (and the courses taken) teach how to draw, but they don't teach you how to make it look nice and pro.

I want some standards for sizing, labeling, folding, etc. Also standards on construction drafts, to tell the contractor "this is a stair", and not anything else. Is there anyway to say "here a wall fan" without having to draw an elevation of the warehouse?

Maybe I started with the wrong foot: What level of detail is required in a layout? For example, I have seen some that show cables and tubes, others do not.

I have a copy of the ISO standard for representation, but it is meant for one-line-diagrams and flow diagrams; not for layouts or construction drafts.

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#6
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Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/04/2008 11:04 AM

Hello gussosa:,

Now,..............where to start?.....................At the beginning.

This is not an insult OK? But I would have thought it all part and parcel of the five years or more of learning, that at least a week, or even a day be given over to this standards rule you mention.

I know I will be accused of stating the obvious but............

It is very basic. Whether you draw on a Drawing -Board or a desk.......

Always have it clean. No coffee stains and spills of other kinds such as food. You are drawing your future here. People you do not know and may not ever meet will scrutinize all your work down to the last dot.

A clean place to work also mean the room and adjoining rooms, OK?

Invest in a really good professional drawing pen set. Including any extra nibs etc and learn how to use them without smudging.

The obvious way to start is perhaps from the top of the sheet down. You will not be resting arms and elbow's on wet ink then.

I would draw an outline then concentrate on one area of the drawing at a time. Again it minimizes the likelihood of messy work. You will need to take time and think about what has to be on the drawing to allow you to measure and connect lines and grids etc.

You do not need to 'draw the whole sheet' at once. Draw by increments a little like the face of a clock. Always work from the 12 drawing to the right of it until you reach number '6'. Then draw on the left down to '6' also. (I have never been in a drawing office if there is any now? So though the advice I give may sound pedantic and tiresome, I have worked that way and I have not had any complaints that any part is not clear.

When you have a basic grid and means of judging and measuring, draw the whole thing if possible, and this is the 'top down' plan, in complete detail on one sheet.

It must be accurate. You should also have a Legend on one corner explaining the scale, time and date, client, Job country area etc and also have your office address and phone number, with a possible 'contact persons' name, as a minimum.

You should have, any detail you think is needed, for someone to fully understand that drawing, even though in probability, they have not seen it before.

Roll the drawing, if you cannot leave it flat. That will be your 'BIBLE COPY'. Make a copy of it, or as many as you like. Then lock the BIBLE COPY away. That should be brought out for the clients only and be available for you to check on. If you need extra copies as the project goes on. Either get them yourself, taking care with the BIBLE COPY, or ask someone you trust to get the copies.

I have not slept at all through last night, and I will leave it there, to be continued, OK gussosa?

I will start to look for a standard you can work from also when I wake.

See you later.

By the way, I have always had to use my dining table to draw on. But I always make sure it is clean and dry.

I am not saying this is the 'known way' to do things. That is yet to be found out.

# 1. To be continued....................

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/04/2008 11:27 AM

I use AutoCAD 2007. Drawing by pen is awful. I used to, time ago, but redoing the entire work each time I made a mistake was bad for my health.

Back in 1997 (first year) there was a course given by some architects where we supposedly learnt to draft according to standards. It wasn't a good course: too shallow. We spent more time playing with play-doh and cardboard on the models than learning engineering drawing and communication.

Yes, my education sucks. I know, I am still duck-taping the deficits of government sponsored education.

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#14
In reply to #7

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/05/2008 3:06 AM

Hello gussosa:

I know exactly how you feel about wasted education. You probably did not realise until later, (in the real world) you don't have that certain bit that would make things easier?

Sorry for sending all the unnecessary detail re: Drawing. Hardly needed on CAD.

Is it you want to know how to make your drawing look better, like by using the correct font, size etc?

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#17
In reply to #14

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/05/2008 10:00 AM

Is it you want to know how to make your drawing look better, like by using the correct font, size etc?

...and colours and shapes and symbols and labels, yes, that exactly. When I compare my drafts with the ones done by Civs, mine look like crayons on cardboard.

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#16
In reply to #5

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/05/2008 6:14 AM

Hello gussosa,

I found this by accident: http://www.cement.org/basics/images/flashtour.html

I do not know what program made it but, it would seem perfect for your drawings for the flow charts. Bringing them to life? I have studied each piece and there is about three or four drawings for each illustration........... Or is that a little off the wall for you?

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#4

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/04/2008 8:48 AM

Any 2D drafting text written by Jensen are really good.

ANSI Y14 does not really get into actually how to 2D

draw, just the standards governing 2D dwgs.

Go on amazon and search for Jensen.

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#8
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Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/04/2008 11:29 AM

Thanks for the tip.

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#10

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/04/2008 1:23 PM

Just an atta boy for #7's input...well written. I used to make my living as a cartographer and I still do make plain old metal fabrication and electrical drawings for the shop, and all of the comments in his post still apply. As for making a drawing professional, cleanliness and clarity of notations is a must. The really great thing about doing a plain old pencil or ink drawing by hand is that it will give you one opportunity that a computer generated drawing won't,..the expression of personality. When I worked as a young man in a county surveyors office, I could look at a drawing and know who the surveyor was regardless of the era of the survey on that parcel of land. That also transfers as a unique identifier for machinery or fabrication drawings....and I know that time is a precious commodity, and with the advent of all of our electronics of today,..sometimes we just lose a little bit of ourselves in our haste to get things done. It's a trade-off. Good luck with all of your future.

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#11

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/04/2008 5:07 PM

Hi there,

Try the book by Jensen "Engineering Drawing and Design" published by McGraw-Hill Ryerson, it is mostly for mechanical drawing but also reveals the standards used such as text heights etc. As for the 3D presentation, they are at their infancy, I do not believe there are many standards at this time, although there are methods which allow labelling of surfaces, text as well as dimensions in a 3D environment, I am unsure if Autodesk softwares are embedded with those options, but these can be had with Pro- Engineer CAD software. As for display purposes, a good rendering engine is important, and a subsequent software may be necessarry to get the real professional results, as lighting and surface reflections make an image look real and are not generally utilized well with the included rendering engines of most 3D capable softwares. Some rendering engines and the operators skill of course will blurr the reality and 3D model design. It will all take extensive time to learn, but the payback can be big. 3D Drawing details can always be supplemented with a 2D view of important information from the model. Assure you have a professional title block to start you off, and that you understand the Autodesk Autocad environments, the layouts can be pre-formatted as far as I know, you may even find assistance in the internal help menu or on CAD websites for standardization, perhaps some of the tutorials drawing provided within the package can prode clues as to what is generally used.

The first thing to figure out if presenting in 3D is the perspectives to be used, lighting and shading, again, rendering or animation functions may help.

For 2D drawings that may be supplementing your 3D assure you use the correct display method, ie first or third angle projection. This changes in different countries, the general European standard seems to be first angle projection of the three views, whereas Third angle projection is standard in North America.

I will do some more 3D presentation research myself, as the display and standardisation of 3D presentation is interesting to me. There may however be many factors affecting the customers needs, it may depend on how a customer needs his 3D information, format, and particularly the requirement of GD&T or other tolerancing, after all often 3D models are drawn as net size. High end CAD packages can be set up to take GD&T into the 3D environment.

I hope that helps a little.

Mirco.

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#12

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/04/2008 7:27 PM

It seems that you have not learned the basics of engineering drawing that is a first semester course in any college engineering curriculum. Once you have that under your belt, it doesn't matter if you are drawing pencil on paper or working on a computer. The basics are all the same. You can't walk until you learn to crawl.

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#13
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Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/04/2008 9:07 PM

It seems that you have not learned the basics of engineering drawing that is a first semester course in any college engineering curriculum.

No kidding!!! :D

Hahahahaha

Read above please.

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#15

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/05/2008 3:49 AM

Hello gussosa: I am trying to get an idea of what you want, OK? Can you check this? Can you say specifically, are you drawing a picture representational view a plan, elevation etc? ... paper space (to create a clear canvas for plan and section views). The Isometrics module automatically produces piping isometric drawings based on the 3-D model. Isometrics can also be created without building a 3-D model first. .....Not sure if this is what you mean on 3D, or if it is up to date enough?

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#18
In reply to #15

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/05/2008 10:15 AM

Yes, the link you sent me is what I mean by 3D model.

When doing 3D I am always unsure of what level of detail is needed. For example:

Do I have to show even the braces on the pipes? Just the pipes? Do I show the ball valves that must be installed before and after any pump or is that obvious?

Is it better to use realistic colours or just anything is fine?

In the floor and elevation drafts, is it ok to use several colours or only one must be used thinking in the plotting?

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#20
In reply to #18

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/06/2008 5:56 AM

Hello gussosa,

On what should be included, I think all valves should have a small side drawing giving type and any ref' to any standards used in the choice of it.

Even though you post me these questions, I am still not sure if you draw only 'Flow Direction' or if you also do Architectural plans?

And I was not able to read any detail so could not see any text on the drawing you sent me.

Personally, I would do the type of drawings you sent me but, to scale of course, and if you have a machine to do the hard work, put every bit of detail including pipe joints and bolts, handles etc. What ever is in keeping with the scale you are using at the time.

You could circe what you think is a critical junction, and phrase changes such as height or slopes and loading gear and take that line to the corner on a square which you draw a more detailed area and label everything you think should be labelled in that detail. And do the same to various bits of the whole drawing. I am not a qualified draftsman, so do not know the terms which you should know.

You also have to decide if you want to draw a flow design, a plan, or a real life type coloured representation of the whole or individual parts.

If I was doing it I would do the flow, plans, and a real life layout of what it would look like on site, including perhaps some outlines of structures which may be important to the operation of the plant, but are part of the Docks or whatever.

You are dealing with dusty farm produce, so it may also help to outline any joints and flanges and filters. and do one of those circled line drawings away from the main drawing for detail. Whether you draw the main part in the center of the sheet and have any extra detail drawing radiating out from the centre, so some are above and some below your main drawing, or, draw the main drawing at the top of the sheet and all the detailed drawing along the bottom.

You can try your own layouts to see what looks better? I mean, I am thinking as I type here, it may pay you to do one small scale drawing of the whole site to scale. Then split up that into its main constituents. main silos, unloading gear, pipe-level changes, slopes, loading apparatus, on different sheets to allow a much larger scale which all goes 'to sell' your ideas?

You know exactly what you want, I presume? So why not copy a style of drawing you like and where appropriate use that and change anything you do not like.

As to colours on a plan or a line drawing. I think they help to distinguish what one area is from another. And I would use the same palette of colours maybe three or four at most to do the extra boxes, (if you do this) and the detail text in a different colour? I really do not know but, you have all the machines, just try some ideas?

You have a 2007 CAD, doesn't that allow you to use all kinds of 2D and 3D drawing styles?

I sent you a link to a cement works, which I think you should be able to manage, and although it may take a little extra time, it should replace any 'explanatory' drawing in addition to your main one/s.

What do you think? I am still trying to find a 'STANDARD', for the things you have to represent like trucks, cars, trains, and thing .

Please tell me exactly what you want in term of software?

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#21
In reply to #18

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/06/2008 9:56 AM

Hello gussosa:

Looks like a useful site from Kev Brown.

http://www.draughtsman.co.uk/on_the_job.htm This site seems to be aimed directly at Draftsmen and has help and advice on CAD as well as hard copy.

There is more up-to-date versions and uses for BS8888 Technical Drawing kits. I know it is just a starting point but Kev Brown BS site is 5 year old. you can get more up-to date CAD and help now.

They offer advice on line widths and font sizes and a whole lot of things that you would understand there use rather than me.

This is just a small part of the advice on drawing they give. Let me know what you think please?

scaling

The first and most important "rule" when working with any CAD software .....

1:1 AT ALL TIMES - NEVER DRAW TO SCALE. While working "on screen" the actual physical size of an object is not an issue.
try this ... insert some text into a new drawing file ... ABC123 - height 2mm - style/font etc to suit yourself.
zoom in/out so that the text fills the available screen, save as view 1.
now, using your text editor, change the text size to 2000mm.
zoom out so that the text fills the available screen, save as view 2.
difference between views 1 and 2 ? none at all, although one is 1000 times larger than the other.

Scaling only becomes an issue when larger/smaller detail views are needed in the same file or when
"hard copy" is required, in the form of print-outs. Detailing, new drawing setups, model/paper space and printing are all explained under their own sections.

Not needing to apply a scaling factor when entering/drawing large objects and the levels of accuracy now
possible in a drawing, are two of CAD's greatest advances (and there are not as many as you might think)
over an experienced professional drafter on a conventional drawing board.
It maintains a greater level of accuracy (quite apart from ease of use) on projects where many outside
components are required for the complete model (often from separate companies around the World)
It also simplifies the use of the many different manufacturers component libraries now available, on both
CD and the World Wide Web, especially those from companies/countries using Imperial measurement
standards when all you have to remember is size x 25.4 (see also, section on Drawing Units)
A picture is worth a thousand words in any language, so we don't want to be wondering what size it is,
it's Full Size !! Converting an existing "scaled" drawing back to 1:1 . The first thing is to get the model (the lines and circles bit) drawing back to its correct full size
( we will sort out dimensions/text etc later)
Establish the scale of the drawing.
If unknown, pick a line on the drawing for which the true dimension is known and note the figure. Using a properties or measure tool, establish the actual dimension of the drawn line and note the figure. The scaling ratio can now be established by dividing 1 by the actual dimension and then multiplying the answer by the true dimension. i.e. (1 ¸ actual) x true. Example: true dimension = 400, drawing dimension = 5 (1 ¸ 5) x 400 = 0.2 x 400 = 80 So we would need to scale the drawing by a factor of 80 to return to full size (dimensions etc excepted)
The drawing/model is now back at 1:1 (full size)

Consideration would now be given to text height, dimension settings, required sheet size etc for the
drawing to be finalised and completed.

Keep in touch.......................

Take care...........................

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#19

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/05/2008 11:29 AM

Not sure if this is what you are needing but you should take a look at BS8888:2004.

http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tables/Drawing/Drawing.html

That is not a link to the BS website but just a link to a description of the standard on the Roymech website.

Kind Regards

Kev Brown

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#27
In reply to #19

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/06/2008 2:56 PM

Hello Kev,

looks like you have something which may be what he has been looking for?

Take care............

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#22

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/06/2008 10:03 AM

Hello gussosa:

This is another page which has four different CAD types and advice on each when you subscribe to the appropriate magazine. You said you have Auto CAD so it looks like the top or first choice is the one to make.

Are you subscribed to any AutoCAD paper Magazines or 'e' Magazines?



publications for the cad drafter

If you work with AutoCAD. This is the official magazine of the Autodesk Users Group International
It is published every two months, for free distribution to AUGI members.
As a member, I was given permission to make it available to visitors at draughtsman.co.uk

Current Issue: November / December 2008 ... new format (not pdf)

If you work with Catia.
The site is well worth a visit as it is a positive goldmine of information
relating to the program and it's users.
Magazine is by subscription.

If you work with Pro/E.
The site is well worth a visit as it is a positive goldmine of information
relating to the program and it's users.
Magazine is by subscription.

If you work with SolidWorks.
The site is well worth a visit as it is a positive goldmine of information
relating to the program and it's users.
Magazine is by subscription.

Take care

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#23

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/06/2008 10:11 AM

Hello gussosa:

I was stunned when I saw this page! It is amazing and, may be just what you want to look moor professional?

You said it not me Go here now and tell me what you think please?

http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/jam/augiworld1108/

Take care.....................

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#25
In reply to #23

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/06/2008 1:51 PM

It's great!

I receive the newsletter, but I didn't know they had such a great magazine.

Thank you very much. And the "draughtsman's" website is amazing too.

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#26
In reply to #25

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/06/2008 2:53 PM

Hello gussosa:

I did not know if you might just see something there, which could help?

I spent 2 hours at the draftsman's site, and every click I learned something new!

I think the BS 8888 may be the way to go but it is hard finding any evidence as most sites I went to want me to join before I can check anything.

Keep in touch. And I am still looking for a 'standards book'

Take care.....................

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#24

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/06/2008 10:25 AM

Hello gussosa:

This is a page from their magazine. You mentioned detail this morning, well, have a look at the detail and rendering of this simple pipeline. Do you do drawings like that?

To read the Magazine you click on 'contents' and from there choose either the first page and then 'flip' the pages or go direct to the page you want.

If you are not interested in this site let me know and I will look for something else.

I will be going to bed in a while so will catch you Sunday or Monday?

http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/jam/augiworld1108/

Take care...................

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#28

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/06/2008 3:05 PM

Hello gussosa:

I found this site which brings together lots of Standards Agencies. Not had a chance to check it out much but, I thought if I posted it I can always check it out when I have time, unless you find something there related to drawing?

http://www.standardzworld.com/9000.htm

CONTENTS














It seems BS 8888-200 has been over taken ?

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#29
In reply to #28

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/06/2008 9:25 PM

I couldn't check it, but I suspect there is a new standard instead of BS 8888, but the site I found keeps sending me to other standards and none seems to be the good one. A scam maybe?

I would buy the old BS 8888 anyway.

Why aren't national standards free? You already paid for that through your taxes! Yes, I am a foreigner, but they don't know that. Besides, it is a law and nobody should be asked to pay just to know the law.

Sorry, just another rant.

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#30
In reply to #29

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/07/2008 4:07 PM

Hello gussosa:,

I think you are correct. National Standards, or any standards really, should be free! Some are But not all, and it seems, never the ones you want? Isn't that always the way?

I thought the draftsman site had quite a lot the mention in their magazine. I am sure if you joined the draftsman site they might then allow you free views of the complete sight including the new standards and specs.

BS 888-200, I have read in a couple of places being dropped. Maybe in favour of an ISO or something to do with the European Union?

If you do not have or know any it would pay you to get the most up to date , don't you think?

Take care, and go on have a rant!!!

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#31
In reply to #30

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/08/2008 9:16 AM

Ok, I will check at the local ISO office.

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#32
In reply to #31

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/08/2008 5:55 PM

Hello gussosa:

I am not sure if any of these are what you are looking for. I have seen them before but could not recall where! It has to worth a look? And possible even an email tp an Admin like Chris Leonard to ask what you spicifically want?

http://engineering-standards.globalspec.com/Search?query=flow%20chart&show=standards

Good luck....................

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#34
In reply to #32

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/09/2008 1:32 PM

Thanks babybear. I didn't realize I could ask for standards there.

Just sent a quote request to IHS. I will tell you what they reply.

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#36
In reply to #34

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/10/2008 3:30 PM

Hello gussosa:

Just sent a quote request to IHS. I will tell you what they reply.

Yes let me know please!..........

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#33

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/09/2008 1:27 PM

Yesterday I went to the library and got an old copy of Jensen's book. It does have all I need, but I wouldn't be able to use it as the drawing-by-hand-tools aren't in the market anymore.

Unfortunately, it seems to be my only chance now.

The latest edition of Jensen's book, which uses Autocad, wasn't in the library and the only technical bookstore in town says they have never imported it.

Well, at least the standards seem to be there.

In the issue of BS 8888, I thought the local ISO office would sell me a copy, but what they propose is that I pay the full 1400 USD, they burn a copy of the dvd, stamp a seal on it, give that to me and keep the original. Yep, 1400 USD for a "Original UNIT Certified Standard Copy".

This is a South African course on drafting (board certified). Apparently completely online and it includes the South African standards. And it is much much cheaper.

So I will go on reading Jensen, later buy a copy of the latest edition, and later enroll in that ZA course.

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#35
In reply to #33

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/10/2008 3:26 PM

Hello gussosa:

Did you tell the ISO you did not want the entire contents of there standards, just one line? $14.00 that is just silly. Standards are published all over the web, it is just a case of finding the one you want ?

I think we should pay the $14.00, give the standards a new name and sell them on to others!

Take care...........

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#39
In reply to #35

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/10/2008 3:51 PM

I meant "one thousand four hundred american dollars".

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#41
In reply to #39

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/10/2008 6:37 PM

Hello gussosa:

Yes I know what you meant. But I screwed up! I typed $14:00 and on a different line $1400. And I was typing away and noticed it just before I was going to send it. Then I corrected the wrong one!

All that sort of stuff seems to be almost the cost of a car sometimes? I have seen several books on drawing that are heading for a 1000 dollars.

That is just silly.

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#44
In reply to #41

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/12/2008 3:13 PM

All that sort of stuff seems to be almost the cost of a car sometimes? I have seen several books on drawing that are heading for a 1000 dollars.

That is just silly.


Yep, I have a book on silos design that would have cost me 850 USD if I wasn't such a bookstore digger. The crucial moment is when you approach the counter with a poker face, show the book to the clerk and say: "How much for this one? Keep in mind it is worn out."

Fortunately most of them haven't got the slightest idea of what they have in the store.

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#40
In reply to #35

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/10/2008 4:02 PM

Actually, I believe that could be done here at CR4.

If CR4 buys the standards as a professional organization, research institute or anything... then the members of CR4 could have access to the standards at no extra cost.

Of course doing it as charity would be plain stupid, but a fee of 10 USD / year would be fine, and there could be some pay-by-work options for students and people from underdeveloped countries.

ASABE has a similar program.

Of course, just writing something as a "CR4 Standard" would be equally fine and would be much cheaper. All you need is a volunteer or several to write down the standards and maybe others to translate them.

Seriously, why don't we go the opensource way?

I have had this idea for ages of writing textbooks using a GPL license.

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#42
In reply to #40

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/10/2008 6:46 PM

Hello gussosa:

I seem to recall from somewhere, that CR4 does have the Standards on this site somewhere.

Why do you not ask Chris Leonard who is Admin for the site, if he can answer your question?

And if not, and I have been 'dreaming', ask whether CR4 could do as you suggest and buy the rights to the Standards?

Ask just for me, please?

I mean, you know exactly what you want, and if asked could explain it precisely. Seeing as you are in the trade so to speak?

Go on ask. Or tell me what exactly you want and I will ask.

Take care..................

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#45
In reply to #42

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/12/2008 3:19 PM

Ok, babybear.

I wrote to Chris Leonard and he told me they haven't got standards in the site and there is no possibility of buying them and borrowing them to users.

Apparently, as long as Globalspec is for profit it is forbidden to act as a Foundation or Institute.

Anyway, at the moment I am using the DoE standards for flow charts (they have two volumes on symbols) and the Navy manual (NAVEDTRA 14040) on drafting. Both are at this site:

Every Spec

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#46
In reply to #45

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/12/2008 5:04 PM

Hello gussosa:

I can understand why they cannot buy or pay for the use.

That part of the site you list was well hidden! And so may different Sites and Standards. Some really interetsing stuff in there!

I have not looked at the Navy one yet. What made you decide on that one?

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#51
In reply to #46

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/14/2008 9:00 AM

I have not looked at the Navy one yet. What made you decide on that one?

It was the one available. Besides, I have several of the Navy books and they are the easier ones to read, because they are written to be courses and not to be arid standards.

The Army books are fine, but they tend to be more boring.

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#37
In reply to #33

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/10/2008 3:35 PM

Hello gussosa:

The only think that you should make certain of is, does the certification apply in other countries?

I would want to ask someone who has actually gone through that system details about it and is it International?

Be careful.

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#38
In reply to #33

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/10/2008 3:46 PM
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#43

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/10/2008 8:03 PM

Hello gussosa:

I won't send any more tonight, but I have found all the Standards Worldwide. I need to know if you want flow design, architectural, and or drawing with CAD?

The piece I pasted at the bottom half of this page is the first page of the CAD details. I have not gotten as far as price. Because I think you would have to be a member to apply to buy?

Codes, Standards and Regulations - (77 companies)
Codes, standards and regulations are developed, maintained, and promoted by regulatory agencies, engineering societies, and trade organizations. Search by Specification | Learn more about Codes, Standards and Regulations


This is a page I found on CR4 and it is all about every type of standard.


http://www.globalspec.com/SpecSearch/Suppliers/Business_Services/Trade_Standards_Organizations/Codes_Standards_Regulations?SrchItem=12&frmqry=ISO%20architectural%20plans&kqid=153961083


>>>>>>Is this what you want, CAD Standards?<<<<<<

United States National CAD Standard®

The United States National CAD Standard (NCS) streamlines and simplifies the exchange of building design and construction data from project development throughout the life of a facility. It coordinates the efforts of the entire industry by classifying electronic building design data consistently allowing streamlined communication among owners and design and construction project teams. Use of the NCS can reduce costs and produce greater efficiency in the design and construction process.

The NCS is a consensus standard incorporating industry publications. It is comprised of interrelated standards, guidelines and tools for uniformly organizing and presenting facility drawing information. It is the only comprehensive standard for facility planning, design, construction and operation drawings. NCS v4.0 is comprised of the National Institute of Building Sciences' Foreword, Administration, and Plotting Guidelines modules, the American Institute of Architect's CAD Layer Guidelines module, and the Construction Specification Institute's Uniform Drawing System modules. Visit the NCS content page to view sample pages from each module of the NCS.

New NCS Version 4

Released in January 2008, NCS v4.0 provides the following improvements:

  • Expanded and reorganized CAD Layer Guidelines includes a new appendix with all groups and fields alphabetized into one easy to read list.
  • Updated Uniform Drawing System includes new and revised symbols for geotech, security, fire suppression, masonry, plaster and other areas.
  • Completely re-written Plotting Guidelines includes new tables—gray scale, color, and line width tables.

Version 4.0 now includes PDF, Excel and .dwg files making it easier to search and implement the standard. Choose your license option and place your order of the NCS Version 4.0 today!

Industry Participation

The NCS Project Committee, the NCSPC, with representation from 12 public-and private-interest categories, encompassing the entire building construction community, performs a broad peer review of each edition of the standard. To participate in the development of the United States National CAD Standard please join the NCSPC.

Take care.................

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#47

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/12/2008 8:55 PM

It is difficult to work out what is your problem!

First of all the books and references that have been recommended may not apply to your country,

The standards that are mention are from USA, and they are not metric, your country is operates under Argentinian standard codes, and the Angle of Projection is First Angle, USA is Third.

Civil drafting is totally different than Mechanical, and follows different rules and layout.

As well, the Beams and Columns, may vary from country to country, best thing is to approach a company that does civil drafting or a Technical college/School they may help you, I can send you some drafting if you wish, or files see if they will help you, these are structural steel design drafting, which I have done my self.

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#48
In reply to #47

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/13/2008 6:27 AM

Thanks Kujirasan.

Actually, I am more worried with the drawing technique and the presentation.

There isn't a single good drafting course around here and I have to depend on books and examples. I would really appreciate if you could send me those samples to my email gussosa@yahoo.com My name is Gustavo Sosa.

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#49
In reply to #48

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/13/2008 9:57 PM

I will send you the Steel one, but give me time, as it is near the end of the year and the work is over whelming , I will try to send you in stages, and if you have question just forward them, and I will try my best to answer them, as well, I know people who teach and instruct civil drafting, I will ask them to come up with answers, these people instruct the following

1.Steel Drafting.

2. Road Drafting

3. water Treatment etc, storm water drainage

4. Reinforced concrete

5.Advanced Steel Drawings.

Please remember that there are no BOOKS, there is just notes, based on the Standard Codes, so you have to ask and record , write your own notes and keep them as reference and hopefully help other people as well.

yours

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#50

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/14/2008 8:44 AM

I asked around a lot and a friend borrowed me the NBR (Brazilian) standards for flow charts.

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#52
In reply to #50

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/14/2008 9:01 AM

I asked around a lot and a friend borrowed me the NBR (Brazilian) standards for flow charts. Despite being an ISO standard, they are even less detailed that the DOE standards.

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#53
In reply to #52

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/14/2008 12:27 PM

Hello gussosa,

I understand what you say. And I too would have thought there was a very serious need for International Standards Agency.

Even more important when people are sending drawing all over the world?

I thought you wanted to be able to draw flow charts with more detail, like shading and text boxes? Is it easy or possible to draw 3D flow charts with all the detail included, to go with the more 'plan' type drawing?

Did you see the DOE Standards? Have you got a copy, or did you not bother, too expensive?

Take care and happy holiday.................

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#54
In reply to #53

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/16/2008 11:42 AM

The DOE standards are free and available for download.

I am a libertarian (ancap) and I have serious issues with government regulation, and even more with international regulations sponsored by governments. However, I would have expected there to be industry standards or standards made by professional organizations on the subject of drafting and engineering drawing.

Why doesn't ASME give away standards and books? They are supposed to help the profession and to do it without a profit. Or maybe there really is a profit to be made? Then I would prefer some standards made by MIT or Purdue.

As far as I know there isn't such a thing as a 3D flow chart. What I do in 3D is layout, i.e. facility models. They are a great tool when you need to measure the lengths of wires and pipes, which are sometimes hard to calculate using 2D.

All the symbols I have found for flowcharting are for electrical installations and for water installations. There seems to be no standard for the kind of work I do (bulk solids handling, storage and processing). It is a problem because the language isn't unified, but it is an advantage in the sense that I can draw whatever I want.

I liked the idea of writing standards here at CR4, in an open-source fashion. Too bad Chris Leonard didn't like the idea.

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#55
In reply to #54

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/16/2008 8:47 PM

Hello gussosa,

I understand and know exactly what you mean. I had the same problem though in a smaller way when I tried to find details of accessible Engineering tolerances for machines I was working on several years ago now. Not recently at all. But I found they would let me join for 'free', that's a laugh! And then charge me on average £20 to £40 for any info. And if you call yourself a 'professional' then I was told on more than one occasion, that I should be able to afford either the joining fee and or the exorbitant book prices. This was also the response I got when I wanted some physics details. Sort of scientific and physics. I wanted some large scale drawing but the cost of the books was such that I borrowed from the Library!

I saw this on another thread and this is not what I had in mind when I mentioned '3D', bur I have mentioned coloured and how they can improve and 'sell' your drawing? Like this:

This is dealing with things you know and understand and that little extra colour and detail means you can almost here the stuff flowing through the lines! It does involve a little extra work but so too much.

I am still looking for examples of free design or flow chart advice and standards.

When you think about it the things you draw are in the Engineering/Electrical/ and plant (as in flower) sphere, rather than Architectural, at least for the moment.

It is your business so you would know more than I do anyway, but, have you not found any publications at your Uni' which have the kind of drawings you like and perhaps you could add some animation and colour where appropriate?

Take care........................Gusso

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#56
In reply to #55

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/17/2008 7:15 AM

Ok, I will send you the flowcharts later.

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#57

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/31/2008 9:17 AM

You may look for the "Plan Preparation Guide: Civil Engineering Plans". This is a practical guide that provides what goes into the construction plans for most civil engineering plans. It provides instruction to proper drafting techniques (just because the computer does it, doesn't mean it does it well).

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#58
In reply to #57

Re: Manual for Drawing Layouts: Does it Exist?

12/31/2008 9:26 AM

Thank you. Do you know who is the editor of that book?

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