hydrogen fuel cells dont work

Guest,

I'm truly sorry you lost all that money, time, and possible warranty. This is kind of a backwards way of getting back at these scam artists, but could you hang around CR4, maybe registering and joining in other discussions, but being a first hand witness for other people who might be about to be scammed? You could be a big help in saving other folks from this baloney.

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Hi Kip,

So sorry you were scammed. This topic has been brought up many times, most notably by Toomuchfun, who keeps insisting that it works when it has publicly been proven a scam on Mythbusters. TVP45 is correct. Perhaps you can consult your lawyer for advice as to whether you can sue Dutchman for this, but over here, the best thing for you to do now is to draw as many people's attention to the fact that this is a scam as possible. Don't worry, you'll find many people here, including site administrators Chris Leonard and Moose, behind you on this.

There's one thing I've always wondered about. If your car battery is the type that requires periodic topping up of distilled water, then electrolysis is taking place every time you drive as the battery recharges. Why then do these guys not simply use the H₂ gas byproduct of recharging instead?

sorry you got ripped off.. Conservation of energy: IN Brief..The energy you get from burning Hydrogen in Oxygen EQUALS the amount of energy required to separate the hydrogen and Oxygen (water) And thats not taking into account inefficiencies and losses in any system.

Water is not a battery..it takes as much power from your alternator to separate it into Hydrogen and Oxygen as it puts back in , less losses.

Hydrogen is a great fuel...just got to find a way to store it on board in sufficient quantities to be useful; and then find a way to scrub some of the Nitrogen out of the intake....

regards maxim

Well with a name like Dutchman (SCAM) that should have been a hint by itself.

as all the Dutch sceeming idioms the American language has

"There are two types of people I cannot stand, those intolerant of others nationality, and the Dutch!"

Sir Nigel Powers (Michael Caine).

G'day Kip,

Sorry to hear you were ripped off. However, basic physics say that you get nothing for nothing. Even if it could be tuned, the amount of energy that the Brown's Gas may contain has to be released from the water via electrolysis. At 100% efficiency, the drain on the engine due to the alternator load (producing the extra current for the electrolysis) has to be equal to any power gain. Remember, energy is neither greated or destroyed, it is just converted. Therefore, due to the mechanical and electrical losses in the alternator plus resistance losses in the cables, switches, relays, fuses etc, you must lose. Even a so called aircraft engineer selling these kits in Australia didn't reply to my questions about these points.

Keep at them for your refund and, try to claim the extra costs you incurred. Under English Law, including Ausralian and American statutes, you have a case. I suggest talking to a solicitor or even a debt collector that works for a percentage of the recovered monies, ie, no recovery, no fee.

Best of luck and appreciate what you've learnt through the experience.

Regards,

Royce (RRVAU)

Well, I'm living proof that HHo generator in my car make me do 30MPG. Before that it was 22MPG. I did not scam myself...he,hehe...

Guest (and that's only your title, not my feeling toward you),

Read the opening post and try to see what harm this crap actually does to people. If you want to be a flim-flam artist, go to Broadway and set up a table with three walnut shells and a pea.

Yeah, there is lots of scamers, but it does not mean that ALL about HHo generators is nothing but THE SCAM! It is working in my car for months. I build it, I installed, I'm running whole system: EFIE, MAP sensor enhancer, HHO generator, bubbler.....

Can you please send it to a reputable testing body to prove it to us all? What is so different about your system that it will work when others are scams? Kip had his installed by so-called professionals, and it didn't work. Are you saying then that you are also selling such systems and that you can do a better job than those who ruined his car? Simply making unsubstantiated statements is proof of nothing. Your posting a statement that you built and installed one in your car appears to imply that you are advertising for your service.

One more thing, how do we all know that you're not really Dennis Lee and are out to promote this scam?

No, you didn't scam yourself, but you're scamming others, because you did not offer IRREFUTABLE EVIDENCE to support your assertions.

it still dont work. and it is runeing my car. who is your mechanic where does he live etc. we are in reno nv and they cant get it to work its causeing problems for me and my family.

still is not working they say that the computer in my toyota is to smart and that the dutman optimizer cant fuel the car to burn the hydrogen in place of the gas.

Should we think that this product only works with older models only?????

I encountered one device that promotes 25-30% fuel savings made from China and the funny thing is all you have to do is plug the device into your car lighter..duh...???

Sorry I should have taken a picture of this for you guys to see..if my conversion is right it only cost $13???

Hello all. First off I'm not selling anything or promoting anything one way or the other that's for sure. I have however been testing many "related" items as I own an automotive enthusiast news paper here in the southwest. Looking for an article to write, my curiosity got to me about those "generators" and spent about a year learning about them and about Hydrogen related in general. In those many tests, I kept good records and to those who are engineers, the many messures of testing and figuring in all the variables. To keep this short, where people "might" see a gain is in the water vapor itself. I found none of the, yes 12 systems and a couple that we made using every trick in the book and bottom line is still more energy in than out. Frankly negligible results when any. However I started using steam metered in to my induction system and found that on the dyno the AF ratio would maintain a very consistent reading where otherwise was varying between 12:53 to 15:1 through a Carter quad. It maintained pull after pull Between 13:12 and 13:50 throughout the entire load range with the steam on. This is on a 360 dodge. This is one simple example and have since made many more tests and different metering devices for steam and the pressures. Since, we've moved on to other induction systems for racing, economy, torque and such. So how was my mileage? all of about 1 mile (extra per gallon) or so in the real world. Obviously a steady A/R will do that. (yes I since dialed in the carb) So at least better than adding amperage and a bunch of work for nothing. I did get my 318 turbo charged 1972 Duster to run on Hydrogen made from one of our generators, just for kicks to see if it could be done. Yes it can, but the amount of amperage needed was beyond what that or any car could ever do without stupid amounts of work and talk about energy in and not getting it back out! When I say run, I mean Idle. For what it's worth, curiosity, that's my take on it.

Your car is using a 4 wire "wide band" sensor, for which there is no known EFIE on the market that I know off....This is why the HHO add-on conversion did NOT work...The installer should have known this BEFORE he took your $$$$

would anybody like to install and tune a duchman kit i have 2 kits

Does the "dutch kit" use dry cell design??

One enduring mystery to me is why it is that despite all of the claims of successful mileage improvements using this technology, no-one has taken their cars to a dyno shop and gotten back-to-back tests to show what effect the hydrogen is having. If I had such a car, a dyno shop test would be a top priority.

A conversation that I had just the other day shed some light on this. A friend has his business in a building that is adjacent to a dyno shop (constant sounds of cars being wrung through the walls), and while I was visiting him he introduced me to his neighbour the dyno shop owner. In conversation I asked about his customers, and if he had had many customers with electrolysis units fitted. His response? Yes, quite a few, one or two a week for a few months now. They had all, he said, left his shop with a frown on their faces because the dyno tests showed decreases in horsepower and torque right across the rev range with the electrolysis units turned on. He also said that some of them had leaned out their engines way more than was good for their engines.

Now, I know that this is not evidence, its just an anecdote. Could it be, though, that the total absence of published dyno tests supporting the use of electrolysers is because any and all dyno tests that have been done have produced negative results?

I have an up to date "state of the art" rear wheel dynamiter at my disposal as we use it for all our engine and modification testing. We also have an engine dynamiter as well. Results for those who have come in the past have also been disappointed. I can post for people here results from up and coming testing, however we havn't seen one in awhile related to these HHO p'sos. I have a friend who paid for one. Due to his hard headedness he wouldn't listen to me. So I'm hoping to convince him to let me put his vehicle on the dynamiter. I will publish the results if he does. It looks like a well made system but didn't get the brand at the time. We test often many ideas and or after market products and it's amazing what claims are made by even very large credited companies that end up not to provide any or nominal gains claimed. Testing accurately and often with appropriate methods is the only way to get some real answers.

Just for some credibility sake, are the dyno sheets from above where I discussed the change in a/r from steam. It's just from two runs of many. All with the same results . shown after then before. More on this topic if interested for another post.We've done more related.

naturalextraction any chance you could e-mail me the results of your test.... nofaith@charter.net this fuel cell thing is getting worse every day and the reps are ignoring the problems.

thank you

Hi guest, first off it helps if you could identify yourself a little. But the test I showed here are for steam injection systems that I've been testing for I.C. engines. Basically it may provide some basis of "reason" for why these Brown gas or HHO device have provided any claims in mileage change at all. Mostly those claims are made without any real scientifically substantiated proof. To date I've yet to see anyone do that.

In my tests, the steam merely acts like a catalytic cracker. More utilized from back in early 1930 to 1933 before lead started being added to fuel. The steam helps to better atomize or have better molecular decomposition of the fuel molecules. Which in the day, the fuels where much more dense and without many of todays additives and mostly pure unnecessary crap in my opinion. The additive have less of a benefit than claimed. The results of steam injection have been different in a fuel injection system or DPI system as apposed to these natural aspirated carburetor inductions systems I've been playing with. Simply cause I can physically manipulate my changes while utilizing different monitoring systems. Also the testing was used for the development of my multi-fuel induction systems any way.

The electrolysis part of those systems are as everyone here talks about as REALLY inefficient. Yes they are creating some Hydrogen but it is so negligible for it to really make any difference and there isn't a single one out there that has any kind of true metering systems if it was truly providing anything substantial, which sends up more red flags. But they do disassociate water molecules. Thus resulting in that somewhat equivalent to water injection and or aiding in the reduction of cylinder combustion temperatures.

As for your situation, I can only suggest taking the legal routes applicable and understand that science as I've learned regarding physics and chemistry is there for a reason with the building block structure of learning well tested for hundreds of years. There are many ways to think outside the box so is often stated, but there are physical limits and some of those being what others have learned and learned well from our scientific history. So I will not often step outside what others have learned but build upon those theories and studies while often I may branch out on a limb or two that might push the envelope at times. Always take the time to really do RESEARCH about any product that may be offered. The ol saying if it's to good to be true, I've found in life that it is probably true. However there are some great things being developed every day! But find out more about ANY product you decide to purchase. Caveat Emptor still applies. These guys selling these units, if nothing else, have great marketing techniques.

I don't know if there is much else I can help you with but if I've missed something your welcome to ask!

By the way I've offered to provide testing on a rear wheel dynamiter for some I've run into with these devices and yet to have anyone take me up on it including a good friend of mine. Oh well.

All those test didn't explain why I'm gaining MPG! From 22 to 30! My car is running better than before, I'm making WORLD GREENER. I did not lean my car tooooooooo lean, to loose power. Lots of people explained why "flying machine" is just some scam until Wright brothers prove them wrong. They did it against all known physical laws.

Show us your proof and what means you've devised to test to know that you are making that kind of mileage gain. When you say tooooo lean how were you monitoring it? How much fuel was measured in for the testing from other than your tank? How did you account for ambient readings, exhaust temperatures, emission reading, what rpm range did the engine run at under what load conditions, I could go on with a huge list of items to account for the sake of accuracy. Protesting your claims is not any different than the others who do the same and frankly it gets extreamly tiring.

Why should I do that? You do not have to believe me, nobody is forcing you to use your brain differently. I know what I know, I'm saving gas/money and that's it. It looks like progress will be almost impossible with more people like you. Did you ask yourself why auto makers are developing HYDROGEN cars? They are scammers to?

Dear Guest,

When you go to Rome, you do as the romans do, and when you post on an engineering forum, you can expect to be picked apart by engineers who generally work with independently-verifiable facts. If you wish to persist in making vacuous claims without offering any supporting evidence, expect to be flame-baked here.

When I go to Rome, I'll always use common sense and open mind. I'll not do what the ROMANS do. I'm surprise that engineers in this forum DO NOT work with independently-verifiable facts. They just took some post about Dutchman morons and applied to WHOLE HHO scene. They are far from flame-bake me.Haha...

new update on the kit... The dutchman trained and certified tech is pulling kits off the cars he installed in the area due to a factory flaw. The seals are not holding the acid water mix and are melting down and sending the wrong type of gas to the engine that is what there telling me for now. He also said that there Air Mailing kits to replace the kits that were sent out for all prior instalation. The plastic seal also melted and sent a black tar into the engine and pluged up the eletronic throttle body where it wouldnt open any more leaveing me stranded in and intercetion on a main street. I Really want to believe that this kit will work but from what i see its not going to, when the engine fan engages it pulls enuff current that the engine almost dies there are people i know who claim that it works and it may work on some cars but on mine it will not. The optimizer is not compatable with 2004 or new cars, the tech said the new and smarter your computer is the harder it will be to make it work and yes your just tricking the engine to run leaner with this computer and use a hyrdo gas to maintain horse power but the draw on the electrical system is emense they turned it down by lowering the amount of acid in the water so that the current pull is only 8 amps from 13 but still this tech is flawed and not perfected and shouldnt be marketed till such time. The sales pitch that was given is plug and play, and the optimizer computer that is installed would take over and work with the cars computer but it didnt and they turned it off and still my car died over and over, the excuse for the failure is the melted tar gas that was being pumped into the engine but from just talking to a toyota tech his response was its the computer, now if the computer is not working it can me alot more money. I have been reading the post of this subject when you say it works on your car what kind of car. how much is the power drain and how much power does your alternator put out without draining your engine out put. From everything i read about these kits these things should be taken into factor before you ever thing of even trying this. Still my opinion is dont even try it, its not worth the headaches, stress and loss of time and money.

new update for today Dec 20th 2008, the electronic throttle body was seased shut buy a build up of crystalized crud on and around the thottle butterfly valve. Its a dirty gas, he spent a better of 20 min with cleaners, picks and sand paper cleaning the throttlebody just so i could get to work this morning. out of 20 kits installed there haveing problems with 6 to 8 of them due to the Dutchman optimiser not working with the vehicles computers.

I HAVE SPOKEN WITH OTHER DEALER OF THE DUTCHMAN PRODUCT HE MARKETS IT LIKE AMWAY DOES SOAP. THERE IS SO FEW PEOPLE SELLING THE TECH THAT REALLY KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT CARS OTHER THEN SAYING THAT WAS WRITEN DOWN AS A SCRIPT FOR THEM TO REPEAT. HYDRO GOOD GAS COMPANY'S BAD. BUT THE BOTTOM LINE IS IT DIDNT WORK ON MY CAR, THE COMPANY OR AFFILIATE DOES NOT WANT TO TAKE RESPONSIBLITY FOR IT NOR ANY OTHER AFFILIATE AND THEY JUST SAY SORRY BUT OUR TECH HAS INSTALLED 40 PLUS KITS IN YOUR AREA AND THERE WORKING HE ONLY HAS PROBLEMS WITH 10 OF THEM, BUT HE IS WORKING ON IT AND HOLD ON DUTCHMAN IS PLANING ON RELEASEING A NEW UPDATE THAT MIGHT WORK ON YOUR CAR. I DONT BET ON MIGHT, JUST GIVE ME MY MONEY BACK AND REFUND ME ALL EXSPENSES ACCURED TO THE TUNE OF $3100.00. SOON AS I SAY THAT TO A AFFILIATE THEY RUN FAST.. AND PASS THE BUCK.. WE WILL SEE YOU IN SMALL CLAIMS COURT DUTCHMAN OR AFFILIATE.

It has all been said before- the prob is customer believing scammer over state of art auto maker- naive?- guess so- I believed guff on web- seemed so genuine- I made my own electrolyser using s/h materials- over a period of about 90k kms, I really thought I was getting extra mileage- until one day I started to doubt - To prove matter I installed 1l fuel container with electric pump supply & return to carby inlet- this proved conclusively that HHO does not work- since I removed system I am getting extra km /l. Since then, I now coast down hills- I now get genuine 50 mpg(1978 Isuzu 4 cyl 1.6l manual).

Dutchman story is solid proof of one thing: Dutchman company is a bunch of idiots and amateurs. Nobody (so far) can build "plug and play" HHO system!!

I guess nobody wants to take me up on my offer and finlay put this thing to rest all you guys do is talk shit well I say put up or shut up If you never tried it you don't know if it can be done or not

I tried it and it dont work. and the excuse is the dutchman optimizer dont with with cars that are to smart is what the tech said. So my car is to smart wow guess i should buy a dumber car.

new update for the fuel cell problem today.. they just scoped my engine and guess what, the caustic solution they put into the water is in the engine cylinders and it has pitted my valves and valve seals. So far the or your money back clause the have for dutcman is going well for the kit they refunded the kit price but now there trying to figure out what to do about the damage to the car its a new 2006 toyota corolla and it now voided the factory warrantee, now what.

I hate to say this but what you are describing is not from the HHo. How do we know you are telling the truth. Maybe you should prove it or just sew the guys. I have three home made units, That are 6 cell 12v at 6 amps producing 2.5-3 lpm. increasing mpg 35% on all three vehicles. I don't want to here the crap from you engeniers that it don't work. IF you want to prove me wrong build one and see for yourself, after all you are supposed to be enginers

How do we know YOU are telling the truth"guest"- on probabilities & my own experience, I think you are a wanka- if not submit your design & we will judge it- afraid to let out "your secrets?"- it just don't work- you are deluded- try real tests- not the Bs you are using!. Kind regards.

They are no cars "to smart"! They are cars with different ECU'a (on board computers) and different types of sensors, to be modified. Before you or your mechanic do ANYTHING, you or he need to know lots of things about your car! Without this knowledge, you will end here crying about "hho system is scam"! HHO is working, is saving gas and EARTH!! Lots of future cars will use hydrogen, automakers are working on them. In Europe they are already on the market!

NOBODY will install your Dutchman kits on your car, because your O2 sensor CAN'T be modified! It will NEVER work on your car, until someone develop EFIE fot this type of O2 sensor!!

It was installed by a Dutchman trained and certified tech and sold by Dutchman as a kit that will work on any car, also they were in touch with Dutchman directly when the kit was not working to try and fix the problem and what are you going to say about the melted throttlebody and valves they were only pulling 8 to 13 amps. The acid is inside my engine and its not burning off the pic's from the scope show it. If you want more information just send me a E-mail and i will prove to you they did nothing wrong its the product and if you have one installed you might want to scope your engine and look at whats its doing inside. Hyrdrogen is a usefull tech i am saying that these kits are not the future. So for final words again. Its not working on my Toyota 2006 and its causeing mechanical problems, The kit was sold as a works on any auto, Dutchman techs that run there tech support center said it would work and it still didnt even with all the mods they tried. and the acid from the water melted 2 throttlebodys and is eating the inside of my engine.

DVader1000...Why airplanes do not make movement with their wings, like birds do, to fly?...Your logic is simply "brilliant". Haha....

Well, I think I've seen some really dumb comments about hydrogen gas, but you take the cake. Did you post only to see if your DSL link was still up?

Yes, how about you?

HUH?

New update for all you on the fence believers in Hydro Cells. The company dutchman came to Reno to set up sales. They installed alot of kits all over the Reno area with promises of fuel savings and preaching down BIG OIL, all the kits they installed are not working and the people who ran the shop are closed and filed bankruptcy. They are talking class action and the Attorny Gen has been involved. What else do you need to hear people, its a scam. I still see people preaching that it works on there cars and if it does you may not be able to count or figure you full properly. The fancy orange test the braged about is just fill your tank drive and fill your tank again and then figure your miles to gal. I have lost to much money and time. If you want to put a kit on your car go for it, and then you can join me with the complaint line, its geting longer every day and people are just ashamed for getting scamed and are not speeking up.. My friends who talked me into putting the kit on my car because it worked so good on theres, well they dont come around anymore and they didnt even want to admit that the kit they had didnt work till after it didnt work on mine. Human nature.