Thanks for your input, another poster suggested an onsite hydrogen generation process to utilize the daytime power produced for off sun hours of power, the hydrogen could also be sold to offest running costs, what are your thoughts?

I once heard someone suggest building tall towers in the desert open on the bottom and a turbine generator near the top. Something about the nature's heat creating a wind tunnel? Gee it must be a very tall tower

tom

They are still working on them, but they look promising. Google "solar tower" for more information.

I've always wondered about covering the southwest 'wasteland' with solar panels. I'm sure the people living in the southwest do not regard their land as waste. Many are ranchers who make their living off this land. Other peole hunt, hike, bike, etc. on these lands. They probably don't want to see the whole area covered with solar panels.

Then there is the environmental aspect of doing a project like this. If you cover the area with soalr panels, what happens to all the grasses, cacti, animals, insects, etc that live there. Additionally there is the manufacture of billions of tons of solar panel materials.

Sorry, but I just don't see this happening... ever.

Interesting factoid on the Fairbanks, Alaska power system and their power storage needs. I saw this on "Tougher In Alaska" (History Channel) and wikipedia validates it:

"The Chena power site has four steam turbines fueled by coal and one oil-fueled electrical generator. Fairbanks currently holds the world record for the largest rechargeable battery, which weighs approximately 1,300 tons. The battery was installed to help bridge the gaps that occur during frequent power outages. The battery will provide power for 7 minutes to about 12,000 homes."

Not very encouraging.

Hooker

The land is no problem. There is lots of wasteland out there, and you could use it for more than just the solar plant. The simple way to store the energy is as hydrogen. Just produce the hydrogen and use it to produce more electricity as needed at night. You can also sell the hydrogen directly. Cheap oil will probably put all such plans on hold for now though. We need to build energy efficient vehicles to keep oil prices down as long as possible. Tax the gas hogs or the gasoline. Good luck with that though. You may be concerned about global warming, but I just heard that a new ice age may be on the way. I favor going for cheap oil and natural gas, and taxing pollution of all types. I am 63, and may not live to see peak oil. There is still a lot of oil sands and shale to exploit for energy independence. Environmentalists may not let us use it though. Depends on the politics. The cheapest and cleanest factors need to be weighed in the balance.

How much Exact area wolud it be??

In short 'not worth it'!

In short 'not worth it'!

Not yet, but ultimately this scenario will become economically competitive. The cost of photovoltaics will continue to fall, the price of petroleum will continue to rise (after the current recession ends), the Sun will continue to shine, and the supply of petroleum will continue to diminish. It is just a matter of time. Then Africa, Australia, Saudi Arabia, and the American Southwest will supply the rest of the world with photovoltaically-generated electricity.

Hopefully this change will occur before we build many new nuclear fission plants, which even though increasingly supported by environmentalists, will nevertheless burden us with more long-lived radioactive waste and proliferation of nuclear weapons.

Thank you, my sentiments exactly !

One thing is absolutley sure, if nothing changes - nothing changes !

People will continue to complain about the unchecked rise and fall of petroleum prices dictated by OPEC, pollution problems, dangerous radioactive fuel being used and what to do with it after it's spent ? Would they like the used storage facilities in their back yards !

How soon humankind, with their infinite wisdom, forgets the Chernobyl experience ?

Coal is not much better, there is only so much and it too will run out, again ask youself, would you like these plants behind your home ?

Continuing to use fossil and radioactive fuels will only prolong the grief and complaining of those that use them. They will run out, they cause pollution and are dangerous to us.

The government should have used some of the billions, given to the fiancial unaccountable hogs, and not even nowing where it is going, to upgrade this country's power grid in order to be able to handle and promote wind, solar, hydrogen (made from solar electricity) hydroelectric, wave and any other renewable non polluting energy source.

I really hope Americans will wake up and help America become self sufficient using innovative thinking, like we used to using good old common sense and logic.

Don't you think the billions spent in Iraq and Afganistan could have provided enough funding to build our power infrastructure and maybe even a couple of months health insurance for us to boot ?

Thanks for the forward thinking, it's nice to have idea sharing with someone who can see the current and future problems. Keep the ideas coming, they all can be of great use.

One of the biggest issues not but touched on; none of the alternate energy systems AT THIS TIME can make it without incentives (subsidies). Once you produce enough power, you usually fall out of the subsidy window and have to directly compete with utilities.

Two problems with that are that they power cheaper than you can, and your construction and replacement costs are way above theirs.

In the southwest we make electricity with coal FROM WYOMING at .03c per kilowatt. A power plant, outside of routine maintenance, won't need replacing for 50 years if then; your cells are going to die of environmental factors about every 10 to 20.

THEN the environmental issues kick in; you are going to affect (whether positively or negatively is to be seen) rainfall, sunlight on the ground, erosion, grazing access, sunlight reflected, wildlife, etc.

When you talk about an acre this can be easily analysed; when you start talking about thousands of acres....

The easiest way to approach such a project would be to work with the tribes on the reservation in a combination environmental/employment/education scheme and go for multiple funding sources under each heading. Don't think you will be the first to approach them.

And sadly the easiest mitigation for SOME of your environmental issues is to build above ground. That is a substantial cost increase.

And the goats will eat your wiring.

And you might want to drop use of the term "wasteland" before you talk to these people about their home. People actually live out here.

Anyone who has driven accross the west knows there is are millions of acres of wasteland in this country. This is land that can be improved and made productive before it is further degraded by those who have destroyed the original condition it was in before the white man arrived. Worldwide assessment and remediation of degraded land is essential to halt desertification. Bringing economic value to the land will only increase the care that is given to it. There is no reason that flora and fauna cannot coexist with windmills and solar panels. Environmental extremism is a threat to our national well being. National Parks should be left alone. National Forests, and all other federal lands were always intended for multiple use. Ranchers have been getting a very cheap deal for a long time, and need to share the land with solar and wind energy producers. Mountain goats don't care if the rocks they climb on have had the oil removed from them either.

Holy, interesting theme first at all. Technical stuff. We probably may apply some 'Analog-Digital Technology' here by build-up some kind of transfers switching arrangement which monitor 'Demand Vs. Supply' automatically in every substations to and from the grid, my friend. Between 'Solar-Wind' power hook-ups is a good possibility, Hey Why Not? So, by having few substations in between these main power plants we'll be able to 'crank it up' as need it to booster the grid up with 'green juice'.

GreenPower,

MC

from a paper written by Bill Hannahan, to replace 900 Mw power plant you will need 6170 Mw of peak power. so, at $3/watt, that's $9 Billion dollars. You will need to store the energy for use at night, so add another $10 billion in batteries. Battery charger and inverters, a few more billion. Land. Land speculators have drive the price of land up in the desert to $10,000/acre and you will need 25,000 acres or a mere 1/4 billion. Add infastructure, roads, connections, G&A ect $35 billion

The panels won't last more than 20 to 25 yers and they lose about 1%/year in efficency. Because of blowing sand, you'll lose another 1/2%/yr or increase panel cover replacment costs. BTW, you'll need to wash the panels at least weekly with deionized water.

this plant would supply power for 580,000 people, this means there is an up front cost of $60,000 per person. amortize this with interest, add in operating expenses, replacement of batteries, and you'll end up with about $6,000/person per year. or a little over $400/m Wh or $.40/kw-hr FOB the site. Add in trnasport and local utility fees, lets cat it $.45/kw-hr or more than 3 times the national average.

The government might lease the land to the builder cheaper, but if they do, the nuclear industry will sue and force the land back to market value.

Instead of bailing the banks out, we should have let them and the big 3 get what they deserved and fail. Then watch as the second greatest depression begins, due of course to our inability to learn from our mistakes (and federal reserve stupidity). Use the depressed wages that the great depression produces to fix the ailing infrastructure in a sustainable way while building this thing. All in all, seems like a better deal than giving the banks a trillion dollars.

Sempra Energy has just started a new photovoltaic array based on new technology. It approaches the price of natural gas based electrical plants. Sempra is a leader in the field. It runs natural gas plants. It is based in San Diego.