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Power-User

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Best Use for Biodiesel?

12/21/2008 9:19 PM

Dear Sirs,

I have a client who does not want to deal with the public or any sales/collection efforts at all and he makes 2000 US gallons of bio diesel a week (104000 per year) ; and he wants us, to build him a system to produce electric power with it all, sell that to the grid and get him his check every month. What would your suggestions be on the best use of that much fuel , with relation to ROI , ease of production of power Etc. ?

He's happy if he gets his .09 cents a kw, in the mail without headaches, but a power plant , be it IC engine driven , turbines, or even hydro is work in addition.

Thanks

Joe Woodall , Managing Partner

Georgia Adobe Rammed Earth & Renewable Energy

Dewy Rose GA 30634

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#1

Re: 2000 US gallons of fuel to make power with

12/21/2008 10:46 PM

I think his best option is to turn that fuel into heat, thence into steam and thence into electricity through a boiler to turbine setup.

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Power-User

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#2

Re: 2000 US gallons of fuel to make power with

12/22/2008 9:14 AM

Well if it is biodiesel, then get a diesel engine, couple that to a generator and produce electricity that way. You can probably find a great many generator packages that run on diesel on the used market. Most UPS (Uninterruptable Power Supply) systems run off diesel, so running these off biodiesel should be fairly straightforeward and most of the design has been done in a package system. All you need to do is figure out how many you will need to use the available fuel supply and how to connect this to the grid.

One alternative would be to skip the biodiesel step and have your generator run directly off straight vegetable oil (Assuming that this is the source of the feedstock). The advantage of doing this is that you use all of the vegetable oil, do not have to find a way to dispose of the glycerine by-product, and consequently get a higher fuel value. The dis-advantage is that you have to keep the vegetable oil warm to prevent it from solidifying. Not a huge problem to overcome since you could use the heat generated from the engine to warm the fuel lines and fuel tank. Its a little bit of additional cost to convert the equipment over, but the cost of converting vegetable oil to boidiesel should offset this in time.

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#3

Re: Best Use for Biodiesel?

12/22/2008 10:14 AM

tell you friend he's crazy. The capital and operational cost for a 150 Kw diesel engine generator is about $.04/kw-hr. Then he want $.09, making the electricity $.13/kw-hr. Wholesale green energy sells for $.11/kw-hr.

At $.09/kw-hr, thats a net back $1.10/gallon for the biodiesel. Sell it as a liquid fuel and be happy.

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#4

Re: Best Use for Biodiesel?

12/22/2008 11:42 PM

Sounds like he should hire a salesman, there should be a fleet or other large scale customer who can take his entire production.

Producing power He'll still have to make spec fuel, to burn in the turbine, boiler or ic.

He'll have to deal w/the added regulatory burdens of power quality. The relatively small quantity will make it difficult to to get a fair deal from the local utility.

How about selling it to a existing powergenerator?

The price of diesel being what it is today, I can see the appeal.

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Power-User

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#5

Re: Best Use for Biodiesel?

12/23/2008 1:09 AM

Hi Fellows ,

Those are all very good points and some were my thoughts as well but, he' is adamant about this, so were looking for alternatives to suggest ,or the best Power systems to suggest and your opinions are valued very much.

I hope to receive more of your thoughts and we have requested a budget from him as a starting point to qualify the projects chances. Till Later,

Best Regards,

Joe Woodall, MP

Georgia Adobe LP Rammed Earth & Renewable Energy

Dewy Rose GA CSA

http://www.georgiaadobe.com

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#6

Re: Best Use for Biodiesel?

12/23/2008 2:10 PM

Gas turbines will burn any fuel when set up correctly, there have been many made that run on Diesel, so Bio Diesel should not be a problem, provided all seals in the fuel system are of the correct type to withstand the effects of Bio Diesel.

A turbine needs less maintenance than a Diesel engine, has less moving parts and if run at its optimum revs, uses less fuel for the same amount of shaft horsepower.

Price may be higher on initial purchase, but if the investment is looked at over a period of years, I think that you will find that its cheaper in the long run.

The exhaust heat can also be recovered and used for heating and hot water etc..

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#7

Re: Best Use for Biodiesel?

12/25/2008 9:01 AM

Didn't know how to refer to another thread, so I'll cut-n-paste. This originally addressed how to do windpower for profit, but also applies here:

Things not addressed below:

If he insists on running diesel gensets, he has emissions to worry about. Which means the EPA.

In contrast to previous response, not removing the esters (they are not glycerins before you remove them they are fatty acids) risks excess wear in the tops of the pistons depends on the base oil- see Suporn, K. 1987. Using of Palm Oil in Diesel Engine, Senior Project ME17/1987, Department of Mechanical Engineering, Faculty of Engineering, Prince of Songkla University, Hat Yai.

The rest of this applies to a windfarm model, but diesel genset adds in the need for regular maintenance.

But above all, the regulatory environment and the incentives will help decide if this is a go. Even burning SVO or biodiesel, in most US states diesel is not considered "green" for incentives, and without fitting into an incentive framework the electricity producers may not even have to buy from him.

Great answer, first you need to know the amount of wind, it's consistency, and it's regular (averaged) speeds.

But so much more - make your self do a business plan to the degree you would be willing to invest in it: or take it to a bank.

1. Power company buy back legislation for the area - don't assume.

2. Capacity for accepting your output.

3. Do you even get paid? See New Mexico rural cooperatives for counter examples. The cooperatives are small and can do payout when the land sells again. Thier option, not yours.

4. How much for the required equipment - it isn't enough to run the meter backwards, there are "power islanding" safety issues that could get you seriously sued after you kill a lineman. Power company HAS to have a way to shut you off safely. Fire truck access - mandatory.

5. State incentives available.

6. Federal incentives.

7. any local incentives?

8. Manufacturer / distributor incentives - zero down or zero percent financing could shift your numbers fast.

9. 5, 6, 7, were for wind power; now do 5, 6, 7 for small business incentives, startup incentives, alt generation incentives, female owned corporation incentives (are ya married?), minority owned business incentives (maybe you need a silent partner? maybe you are a minority? maybe you could become a minority/vet/disabled?)

Because make no mistake - you are becoming a business.

Incorporate - insure against everything including debris if the damned thing disintegrates and kills the neighbors cow. Tax benefits depend on S corp, LLC etc, some protect you, some don't; some compensate your investments in education, some don't. Different depreciation rates apply - yes, your tax reductions actually pay for your equipment!

Check zoning - you are creating a power generating utility if you exceed ?how many kilowatts? in your area? NM was 5K/mo, after that you are a utility. And you are taxed as a corporation - if only for that part of your income.

Get an attorney, and an accountant.

Get SCORE - retired businessmen who volunteer to advise those of us who cannot afford to make mistakes. (I mean me, maybe you can afford them ).

If you become a utility, the reimbursement schedule for renewable incentives may not apply to you. Get SCORE and find a retiree who knows the utilities if you are becoming one. Rates are regulated by Public Utilities Commission or its equivalent for the area. Whole new ballgame.

You NEED shelters, your costs of startup are high enough that without incentives and if required to play on a level field with the utilities they can squish you just to cut their bookkeeping costs.

They generate power (again, out west here) for .03 cents a watt, from coal, from Wyoming. You need protecting, and you need to stay under the generating levels for companies.

WAAAAAY more advice than you asked for, but I'm trying to help.

There are a thousand things I'm not thinking of, but that matter. Get lots of good advice. Well, get lots of advice and then start sorting what is actually good.

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#8

Re: Best Use for Biodiesel?

12/25/2008 1:14 PM

May I suggest an alternative? Biodiesel make great parts cleaning solvent for automotive and diesel shops.

Just an idea.

Brad

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#9
In reply to #8

Re: Best Use for Biodiesel?

12/25/2008 1:44 PM

Add fuel tank, line and injector cleaner to that list.

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#10

Re: Best Use for Biodiesel?

12/25/2008 1:46 PM

Hello Georgia Adobe,

How are ya!

Turbines would put you waaay ahead on the efficiency scale and you can reclaim the heat and sell too. Guess you could call it a co-gen

Sell it to a bio-diesel fuel Co-op?

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Power-User

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#11

Re: Best Use for Biodiesel?

12/25/2008 4:51 PM

Hi Fellows,

All Good Ideas, Truly ! I have noted these same thoughts, to the client, before my original posting, Just wish I could talk him into one of them but, he's Hell bend on this path it seems.

So , I'm Making A List - Checking It Twice - Sorry, I Just Could Not Resist, On Christmas Day. Please keep the ideas flowing maybe you will come up with something I can use to convince him to just sell the stuff for CASH.

Merry Christmas

Joe

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#12
In reply to #11

Re: Best Use for Biodiesel?

12/26/2008 2:52 PM

Ok I understand he's really hoping to get away from all the administrative nightmares of dealing with IRS, EPA......... all he's going to do is bring on more scrutiny. The best place to hide is in plain sight.

As soon as the various agencies hear even the rumor of what he's trying to do, they'll be on their way to have a look. No ill will, just gonna feel like they need to justify their existence.

Better to figure out how make em allies instead of how to avoid interacting, which will be impossible. The only way to avoid the regulators is don't say a word & use every drop on your property! Anything you bring on or off is going to increase the chances of running afoul of the powers that be. Make the rules work for you instead of against.

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Andy Germany (1); Anonymous Poster (1); bwire (2); edignan (1); Garthh (2); Georgia Adobe (2); healybj8 (1); Shadetree (1); U V (1)

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