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Albert BlindStein

10/23/2006 2:23 PM

By his own admission Einstein was an observer and a very good one. He was good at observation and then debunking myth with reality when he had the ammunition.

Einstein was an excellent observer, due largely to his willingness to approach problems with a very open mind. This willingness made it possible for him to see the apparent invariance of the speed of light suggested by the results of the Michelson-Morley experiment as implying that everything else we take for granted as invariant - such as as time, distance, and mass (Lorentz' contributions didn't hurt at this time either) - are the real variables in the way the Universe actually works.

It is my opinion, at least, that Einstein's conclusion that "God does not play dice with the Universe" clearly marked the point up to which Albert Einstein stopped being Einstein the Observer, to his new life as Einstein the Scientific Bigot. First of all, it was never Einstein's prerogative to say what God does and does not do with the Universe. For all we know God may not only play dice, but may actually own a few casinos as well.

This conclusion also betrayed Einstein's new unwillingness to accept the results of scientific experiments which clearly suggested that the Universe is not, in fact, the nice, clean-cut, well-behaved, deterministic bit of precision clockwork that Einstein seemed to prefer it was.

I'm convinced that Albert Einstein's rejection of the implications of quantum theory were made not rationally - as one might have expected, given his other accomplishments - but as being an emotional rejection of the results based largely on his own aesthetic prejudices. It didn't feel right to him, and so he rejected what seemed to him to be a bit messy. Had Einstein taken this approach in 1905, he would not have had, in my opinion, the willingness to accept that it was the speed of light that was the standard constant by which all other familiar aspects of physical reality should be gauged. Nor would we now be calling it "Eintein's Theory of Relativity" but rather, perhaps, "George's Theory of Relativity," because "George" hadn't thought to reject this apparent "absurdity" on the basis of aesthetic considerations.

Too bad, too. Some folks quote Einstein's "Dice" conclusion as some sort of justification for holding onto their own prejudices that the Universe is deterministic. For my part, I feel that these folks are perhaps so enamoured with Einstein's obvious accomplishments and the considerable weight of his own scientific authority, to stop and realize that they are, in fact, demonstrating their own willingness to repeat his gravest mistake. The Universe is not deterministic, like it or not, and it continues to be non-deterministic regardless of whether Einstein approves - or not. It is not Einstein's Universe, after all, it is God's.

I personally feel that Einstein's conclusion about God and Dice was the single greatest impediment to his ever having finished his Grand Unified Theory. He never finished it before he died, and I seriously doubt that he ever would have finished it whilst clinging to his own aesthetic prejudices. If you are attempting to build a house, for example, does it help to throw away half the materials even before you begin pouring the foundation?

In his early years, Albert Einstein approached the Universe with both eyes open wide and with an equally open mind. But his subsequent aesthetic rejection of quantum non-determinism was, essentially, a declaration that he was no longer willing to consider all the facts. As if to say, "Sorry, folks, but I'd much rather now see the Universe with one eye closed."

--Europium

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#1

Re: Albert BlindStein

10/23/2006 11:10 PM

Great insight into Einstein. I think the dice comment plays into a diverse bunch of groups hands and muddies the waters of his truly great accomplishments. I also find it fascinating how long it took for him to receive his Nobel Prize as well as the fact that it wasn't even for his most amazing revelations, if I have that correct...

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#4
In reply to #1

Re: Albert BlindStein

10/24/2006 12:33 AM

Big Al received the 1921 Nobel Prize in Physics for his discovery/explanation of/for the photoelectric effect. Einstein did not receive the Nobel Prize for either his Special or General Theories of Relativity, for which he is famous. Evidently, the Nobel Committee considered his less famous discovery to merit the Prize more than his Relativity theories. Personally, I tend to agree with them (which puts me in the minority, as always). His explanation of the PE was an incredible intellectual feat - far beyond his discovery of Relativity. Others were doing similar work, anyway, and probably would have come up with something similar before long. But of explaning the PE, not one physicist of the time had a clue. Even more difficult was the fact that Einstein resurrected, at least in part, an older theory that had long since fallen out of favor with the Scientific Establishment. To resurrect this theory was comparable to committing an act of scientific heresy. But while everyone else was trying to explain the PE using some bastardization of the wave theory of light, Einstein explained it as 'obviously' being due to the quantization of energy into little packets he called quanta - later to be termed photons. Not only did it require a huge leap of imagination to think of light as being chunks of something (especially in view of the prevailing view, backed by Maxwell's Equations), but it took a good deal of cajones, as well to buck the Establishment. I say the first Prize goes to the Photoelectric Effect, with his ToR a distant second place.

--Europium

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#30
In reply to #4

Re: Albert BlindStein

04/08/2007 5:25 PM

As with Gell-Mann and Ne'eman, so with Einstein and Lenard .They independently "discovered" the photoelectric effect, only in Einstein's case it was his submission of the photon that made the difference.

Not even that was exclusively his, but originated from Max Planck, as the idea of quantised, whole, particle (photon) was made in the time, that "light" was considered a "wave" phenomenon, a behaviour of "ether", the (contemporary acceptable since Maxwell's summary) universal infinitely thin and rigid medium which space is made of (until the Michelson-Morley experiment).

Planck was Einstein's mentor in more than one way. Another was Hendrik Lorentz from whom he conceived his later ideas of shrinking rulers and slowing clocks approaching c.

Even later ideas used Lobachevsky and Riemann mathematical techniques for description of curved space.

Einstein was "brewed" in 19th century phenomenal discoveries, his greatness was not merely the invention of new ideas, but the complete grasp and submission of a whole world-view in physics.

In his later days he admittedly had hard time excepting conclusive quantum "description", void of the need to "explain" nature, and thus considered somewhat anachronistic by quantists from the nineteen-thirties to the fifties.

It was Richard Feynman or Linus Pauling (I cannot recall) who dubbed him as "The last deterministic physicist alive"...

He was by no means a lone wolf, and admittedly relied on other people's discoveries.

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#2

Re: Albert BlindStein

10/23/2006 11:19 PM

I'm kind of confused. When you talk about determinism are you making a free-will argument or are you using some other definition of the word?

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#5
In reply to #2

Re: Albert BlindStein

10/24/2006 12:48 AM

A different definition. This kind of determinism is the kind espoused by Isaac Newton. Basically, a deterministic view of the universe holds that, given sufficient knowledge of initial conditions, all subsequent events/actions/etc can be known/predicted with absolute accuracy. This view is a gross simplification of the kind Einstein held, of course, but the two are close kin.

A non-deterministic view of the Universe, such as the view espoused by quantum theory, says that no amount of information - not even an infinite amount of information - is enough to predict future events with any accuracy. Hell, QM says, for example, that you can't even know with absolute accuracy both the momentum and the position of a given particle simultaneously. You can know one of these very accurately, but at the same time the other will be fuzzy. Or you can know the other well, but the first will then be fuzzy. I make colloquial reference here to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. (Google it for the gory - and hopefully correct - details)

Einstein didn't like the fact that certain aspects of the Universe seemed to be governed more by chance, to put it simply. That means dice. Hence, Al's view that "God does not play dice with the universe."

Personally, I think Big Al was just a tad bit too big for his pants at that point.

--Europium

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#7
In reply to #5

Re: Albert BlindStein

10/24/2006 1:24 AM

So then, you assert that God does play dice with the universe?

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#8
In reply to #7

Re: Albert BlindStein

10/24/2006 1:33 AM

I make no claims on God whatsoever.

Now it's your turn: please contrast may with does.

--Europium

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#3

Re: Albert BlindStein

10/24/2006 12:20 AM

Bravo sir! Well put. Indeed it is a sad thing that such a great mind ended up a bit confused but I suppose it is the risk we all assume in being human. I have always said that the hardest thing we have to overcome is our own ignorance of that which we are ignorant. Until something happens to grant us perspective, we are thereby doomed to foolhardiness.

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#6
In reply to #3

Re: Albert BlindStein

10/24/2006 12:50 AM

Oh, I think there is a much harder thing to overcome than mere ignorance.

How about our own hidden assumptions? Now those are the Real Killers!

--Europium

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#9
In reply to #6

Re: Albert BlindStein

10/24/2006 2:01 AM

Well now we go into the realm of emotionally vested belief, sometimes known in its more extreme form as fascism. We run a good risk of destroying this beautiful planet because of what some believe. We also could define stupidity. Perhaps it is the unwillingness to be confused by the facts. What a pleasant topic. We are not as far removed from the non-human animals as we would like to believe. There's that word again.

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#10
In reply to #9

Re: Albert BlindStein

10/24/2006 3:28 AM

Years ago a friend of mine announced that the 'missing link' between the apes and Civilized Man had at last been found. "Oh?" I asked? "Yes, indeed!" he said.

"Us."

--Europium

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#11
In reply to #10

Re: Albert BlindStein

10/24/2006 3:47 AM

How true. By the way, it would seem you have coined a new term. To use it in a sentence: We must tolerate the BlindSteins kindly, tedious though they may be.

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#12
In reply to #9

Re: Albert BlindStein

10/24/2006 8:15 AM

Actually, Fascism is a form of government. Some people use the term now to describe things they believe are overly authoritarian, but pretty much never the way you do.

What you refer to as "emotionally vested belief" or as I would put it, belief without or in spite of the presence of facts, would be commonly reffered to as "faith."

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#14
In reply to #9

Re: Albert BlindStein

10/24/2006 11:48 AM

I don't recall whether it was you or someone else on another thread who was discussing the differences between ignorance and stupidity, nor do I recall specifically what the conclusions were.

For my part, I'd say that the difference between the two terms is primarily one of intent - whether we are conscious of the intent or not.

Ignorance I can accept. We are all born ignorant, and we all die in this condition. And lest some here, upon reading this, might tend to want to get their panties in a wad, let me point out that, in light of the contrast between all that can be known, versus all that we actually do know, I'd have to conclude that most of us go to our graves still profoundly ignorant. Consequently, those who might lord their pitiful knowledge (again, in contrast with what can be known) over others who do not possess such knowledge, really and truly pisses me off. And I've said as much in other posts.

Stupidity, on the other hand, I believe is the fruit of voluntary ignorance. It is not that one does not know, it is that one does not wish to know - and I am just as guilty of this as the next guy. I feel that stupidity, in many cases, takes the form of denial. In order to understand stupidity in myself and others, it is helpful not to focus on its outward appearances as such, and boo-hoo it as something horrible, and take a thank-God-I'm-not-like-them attitude, one should avoid this distraction and endeavor instead to understand the underlying motives. They may, in fact, actually make a lot of sense for that individual!

I feel that many people prefer ignorance over knowledge because the implications of understanding - of honestly considering the facts in their particular situation - is simply too disturbing to confront in themselves. And although I don't particularly respect stupidity in the more general sense, at least as I define it here, it does for some people (again, myself included) serve a very useful purpose which may not readily be apparent to others. I think the fact of stupidity in people, insofar as we perceive it, needs to be considered on a case-by-case basis, and not generalized over all. If one doesn't understand the motive, one is certainly forced to deal only with the symptoms. Not understanding the motive almost always, at least in my case, leads me to the wrong prognosis. Where I might called upon to cure the cancer, I apply a band-aid.

--Europium

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#16
In reply to #9

Re: Albert BlindStein

10/24/2006 1:33 PM

Well considered comments. I suppose if I had said "fascist mentality" it may have been closer to what I meant. In any event an eye of compassion and tolerance for our universal "greed, ignorance and anger" as we say in zen practice is requisite if we are to get along and avoid stressing about our universal shortcomings as a race.

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#17
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Re: Albert BlindStein

10/24/2006 1:53 PM

Which also reminds me of why I like this forum. One must speak out and express their thoughts in order to opportune the garnering of perspective. To do so, often we assume that we have correct understanding. Depending on perspective this could broach arrogance, from some views. Yet a certain amount of courage is required simply to speak to a public forum and a willingness to consider all responses creates a learning environment in which we can adjust our views and correct errors in our own knowledge base. I love it, hope you all do too.

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#22
In reply to #17

Re: Albert BlindStein

10/24/2006 6:16 PM

Well said.

--Europium

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#13

Re: Albert BlindStein

10/24/2006 9:13 AM

When Dr. Einstein quotes "God does not play dice with the Universe" he was refering to his disagreement with the Qantum Mechanics conclusions. It does not mean that Dr. Einstein had a deterministic point of view about the nature of the Universe, otherwise he wouldn't have accepted the existence of singularities ,blackholes and even the Einstein-Rosen-Podolsky bridge. By the way, at the end of the day, he accepted the Quantum Mechanics, perhaps forced, but he did.

It´s unfair call Dr. Einstein "Albert BlindStein" and a very unscientific point of view.

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#31
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Re: Albert BlindStein

04/08/2007 6:16 PM

But it was EPR's weird conclusion, which led to Einstein's reluctance, most associated with his "dice" statement:

"...The "spooky action at a distance" that so disturbed the authors of EPR consistently occurs in numerous and widely replicated experiments. Einstein never accepted quantum mechanics as a "real" and complete theory, struggling to the end of his life for an interpretation that could comply with relativity without implying "God playing dice", as ..." (there, in above)

Schroedinger's "cat-in-a-box" being a direct frontal attack on our intuitive notion of a deterministic nature, was the other "Koan" associated with his Einstein's "dice"

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#15

Re: Albert BlindStein

10/24/2006 12:55 PM

IMHO -- What I believe Dr. Einstein meant by this statement was that the universe is not created to be a series of continuous "Random Events" but as a "Well Planned" series of various events that occur when specific relationships between objects or energy react to each other. I still do not see how this statement detracts from his contributions to the scientific community.

He seems to give God credit for planning the universe pretty well and not just throwing the components over the fence. Pretty strange fro an "Atheist"

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#18
In reply to #15

Re: Albert BlindStein

10/24/2006 2:24 PM

Are you sure he was an atheist?

Just because he talks about a "scientific" God and not a religious one doesn't make him an atheist.

Did he ever say he didn't believe in any king of "god"? That he was a pure materialist?

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#19
In reply to #18

Re: Albert BlindStein

10/24/2006 2:55 PM

Thank you -- No I'm not sure he was an athiest -- my comment was meant on the contrary. If he references God he must have some respect for that concept. Are you sure he refers to a "scientific God" --- I don't believe I ever read that in his writings or documented speeches. I never mentioned anything about materialism -- you are adding your own thoughts to (IMHO) (my humble opinion). Please let my opinion remain just that without adding to it. Thank You

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#20
In reply to #19

Re: Albert BlindStein

10/24/2006 3:13 PM

That's right, I notice the quote signs when you said "atheist".

The fact is I didn't read one book written by him. So I'm kind of asking an honest question, if someone is familiar with his writtings and qualified to answer: What was he thinking of when he said "God"? The God in the Bible? A more general "Creator of the Universe" concept? Th Force that triggered the Big Bang? Or he was just joking? I'm curious.

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#21
In reply to #20

Re: Albert BlindStein

10/24/2006 3:19 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein

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#23
In reply to #21

Re: Albert BlindStein

10/24/2006 6:26 PM

Although a number of folks here have posted excellent replies, the very best counter-argument to my original post was emailed me from a co-worker who is not a member of this forum. Occasionally, I'll bounce my ideas off him and others here whose opinions I respect. Personally, I find Jim's reply to be, quite simply, fabulous.

-----------

I think you are looking in the wrong spirit at Einstein's objections, and have fallen prey (Prey! I say) to this popular conception of the doddering old loser. I mean, really, what happened? He used to be so smart? In fact, YOU(!) are an Einsteinian Bigot! Because you are inflexible in your judgement of what he meant by the God quote.

"Quantum mechanics is certainly imposing. But an inner voice tells me that it is not yet the real thing. The theory says a lot, but does not really bring us closer to the secret of the 'Old One.' I, at any rate, am convinced that He is not playing at dice."

>From an article...
By the mid 1930s, Einstein had accepted quantum mechanics as a consistent theory for the statistics of the behavior of atoms. He recognized that it was "the most successful physical theory of our time." This theory, which he had helped to create...Yet Einstein could not accept quantum mechanics as a completed theory, for its mathematics did not describe individual events. <end>

He simply thinks Quantum Mechanics isn't good enough. I think you confuse a sense for the truth with an aesthetic. And I don't think he's
talking about God the way you are. Equations describe different things in different ways. They're not themselves the truth, but a kind of proof. The understanding of the thing is still a kind of knowing. Without a human, what does E=mc2 mean? Can you describe QM in a single equation of less than six characters? A colorful way to put it might be that Einstein had had a couple of cups of tea with the 'Old One',
and he knew from good tea.

You assert the Premier Observer lost his childlike wonder to rose
colored glasses (scientific bigotry). [You're selling Angel real
estate by the pinhead! Who can know the mind of another?]

I say that Einstein's thinking was not merely observing, but
leaps of imagination. Navigating imagination takes quality of judgment that is about the nature of knowing real things. I don't think it's fair to characterize that as scientific bigotry. I think it's the sound judgement of somebody who knows really good tea.

The Dice quote is saying, "You guys are good, but I've had the real tea".

(E=mc2)

Jim

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#24
In reply to #23

Re: Albert BlindStein

10/24/2006 6:42 PM

Excellent! I have two Einstein posters in my workspace. One quotes "Imagination is more important than knowledge." and the other "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds..." Sometimes it seems like a struggle to not be mediocre with such a great spirit staring off the wall at me.

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#25
In reply to #24

Re: Albert BlindStein

10/24/2006 6:45 PM

"Sometimes it seems like a struggle to not be mediocre with such a great spirit staring off the wall at me."

You too?

--Europium

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#26
In reply to #25

Re: Albert BlindStein

10/24/2006 6:51 PM

Only once a day, every day, all day long.

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#27
In reply to #25

Re: Albert BlindStein

10/24/2006 10:29 PM

I really enjoyed reading this thread and others like it as I watch you guys discussing philosophical questions within the context of high level physics. I am still trying with great difficulty to comprehend what seem to be elementary principles in the realm of relativity, quantum mechanics, etc. Just the terminology is intimidating at times. Last week I read several pages of biographical text trying to learn exactly what Heisenberg's uncertainty principle was and came away with "HUH?" echoing throughout my hollow skull. Don't get me wrong, we all have our gifts. I could probably plumb circles around you guys. That's what I do to earn my bread, but when it comes to things outside my daily experience, it's nice to have a place to be stretched. Keep it up. With your help I might not go to my grave quite as profoundly ignorant as I am today.

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#29
In reply to #23

Re: Albert BlindStein

10/30/2006 2:27 PM

"The real tea" - lol

This thread has been a good read, and reopened some good thoughts. I believe the best I can add is to keep looking to the source of the tea, and don't drink the koolaid.

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#28

Re: Albert BlindStein

10/26/2006 4:05 AM

My objection to your objection uv Einstienz statement "God duznt play dice with the universe" iz that the final word haz yet to be spoken.

A theory coud be prezented tommorow that totally scraps quantum mechanics.

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