Previous in Forum: Heat thru glass   Next in Forum: Instrument from SS or nonmagnetic materials?
Close
Close
Close
11 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Active Contributor

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: MEXICO
Posts: 11

"HEATING WELDS AFTER TEST" GOOD OR BAD PRACTICE AT CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRY ?

01/17/2009 10:23 AM

Hi to all

We are building piping in a new plant this plat is petrochemical we are applying ASME CODE B 31.3 ( Process piping ) . we have piping of material A-53 Gr B Stainless Steel 304 and Stainless Steel 316 an the weld process is Tugsten Gas Induced .

The doubt is about the next.

In order to obtain during the final align some contractors are heating again the welds and in some cases they open the weld around 50% of the thickness . This welds have radiography and in some cases Post Weld Heat Treatment.

I see this like a bad practice nevertheless I have doubt because I don´t have reference about something like this in ASME B 31.3.

I don´t know if I need classify this like a repair because we don't supply material, only heat whit the torch .

The questions are:

1.-Heat the weld after the test needs be considered like a repair?

2.-Is possible open the weld in a joint until 50% of the thickness without new tests (liquid, radiography, etc)

3.-Heat a weld after test is bad practice ?

4.-Can we have other kind of problems if we don't do the tests again?

5.-is possible find references about something like this in other codes like example AWS.ASME, API, British Standard. Or others?

What do you think about this practice at the construction industry

Regards

__________________
"The most important in this life is not to know where one is, but where one is going"
Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
4
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2550
Good Answers: 103
#1

Re: "HEATING WELDS AFTER TEST" GOOD OR BAD PRACTICE AT CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRY ?

01/17/2009 11:37 AM

All your answers can be

Heating after welding is as you guess a bad practce - If I understand what you are saying. You are trying to align the pipes by heating the pipes/ welds and bending - you are keeping a lot of un relieved stresses in a pipe. I don;t think codes (Mr Galala is the expert on these) can tell. But at our works what ever little welding we do on hydraulic lines or in Gas turbines, , it is a strict no - after all the processing is done.

All the alignments and other aspects are taken care of during fit-up and necessary fixtures and precautions are taken to avoid distortion during welding. I don't remember having to resort to this.

And the amount of repair you are doing is called a major repair by any standard - removing 50% of weld thickness and re-depositing.

The pipe line must be re-subjected to all the treatments and NDTs after repair.

Assume a pipeline has failed in X-Ray - what is the procedure ? As you know, these are done (usually) before PWHT- that means the PWHT is carried out in the ASME vessels after all the major repairs are carried out.

The repair is repair - it is not that who has supplied material or labour or other infrastructure. And in case of repair, all the activities have to be duplicated.

(In fact in certain pipings we carry out the NDT twics - the MPI/LPI is repeated after PWHT to ensure no SR cracks have crept in- and we have seen in a few rare cases the joint failing in second MPI)

Depending on the depth then we either remove the defect and leave as it is or repair and depending on the depth/ code etc carry out the PWHT again and re-subject to the NDT.

After the long monologue- my opinion is and as per our internal standards are: all the (mal) practices mentioned by you are not acceptable practices.

__________________
Fantastic ideas for a Fantastic World, I make the illogical logical.They put me in cars,they put me in yer tv.They put me in stereos and those little radios you stick in your ears.They even put me in watches, they have teeny gremlins for your watches
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 4)
Guru
United States - Member - Charter Member Engineering Fields - Instrumentation Engineering - Charter Member

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The People's Republic of Massachusetts
Posts: 1946
Good Answers: 73
#4
In reply to #1

Re: "HEATING WELDS AFTER TEST" GOOD OR BAD PRACTICE AT CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRY ?

01/17/2009 8:28 PM

I agree sb, Good answer.

__________________
I go into every human encounter expecting to be framed for a crime I didn't commit. Dilbert, 2013
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Car Customizing - Dances with Trees Canada - Member - because I can Hobbies - CNC - too much fun Hobbies - Target Shooting - paper shreader

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 769
Good Answers: 10
#2

Re: "HEATING WELDS AFTER TEST" GOOD OR BAD PRACTICE AT CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRY ?

01/17/2009 1:29 PM

From what I am reading you seem to be experiencing some project management issues.

Your first question should be why are these pipes having to be modified to fit?

After testing the pipe should just slide into place, if changes are required, they are indeed repairs and a retest is required.

There seems to be a quality control issue on your construction site that needs to be addressed.

Good luck with your problems, there is a good side at least it's warm

__________________
Kevin "Dances with Trees" Willey
Register to Reply
3
Power-User

Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 130
Good Answers: 17
#3

Re: "HEATING WELDS AFTER TEST" GOOD OR BAD PRACTICE AT CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRY ?

01/17/2009 2:10 PM

One point you must keep in mind is from the B31.3 code:

300 GENERAL STATEMENTS

(2) This Code is not intended to apply to the operation,
examination, inspection, testing, maintenance, or
repair of piping that has been placed in service. The
provisions of this Code may optionally be applied for
those purposes, although other considerations may also

be necessary.

Now this is where things get confusing - repairs to already accredited B31.3 piping fall under you local jurisdictional rules and your company's QA/QC program for pressure piping (which usually refer back to B31.3 for repairs with some qualifications)

You may also look to API 570 (which may also be referred to by your jurisdiction) which, ironically states:

8.1 REPAIRS AND ALTERATIONS

The principles of ASME B31.3 or the code to which the piping system was built shall be followed.

------------------------------------

In the end - you should repair the pipe with B31.3 in mind - with additional considerations (and always follow your company Pressure Program):

  • Must follow original welding procedure
  • Should NDE all repairs (regardless of lot size specified by B31.3) including RT and MPI/LPI
  • Must follow original heat treatment procedures
    • Please confirm that you have indeed performed postweld heat treatment on the original A53 material, according to B31.3, Section 331 & Table 331.1.1
    • Regarding 304l & 316l SS - B31.3 states that no heat treatment is required, regardless of thickness (which is appropriate for metallurgical issues) NOTE: heat treating austenitic stainless is usually avoided to ensure you don't sensitize the material and reduce the corrosion resistance.
  • It would be prudent to perform a hydrotest again - using hydro pigs/plugs would be appropriate if necessary.

To specifically answer your questions:

  1. Yes - consider it a repair
  2. No - must perform NDE
  3. Yes - generally bad practice because it shouldn't be necessary in the first place and opens up the "Piping Repair" QA/QC, heat treatment issues
  4. YES - Weld defects (particularly cracks)
  5. API 570 (ASME PCC-2 which covers other issues, not necessarily your situation)
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: "Dancing over the abyss."
Posts: 4884
Good Answers: 243
#5
In reply to #3

Re: "HEATING WELDS AFTER TEST" GOOD OR BAD PRACTICE AT CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRY ?

01/17/2009 8:55 PM

Guest, You really ought to register. This was a superb response.

milo

__________________
People say between two opposed opinions the truth lies in the middle. Not at all! Between them lies the problem, what is unseeable,eternally active life, contemplated in repose. Goethe
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 130
Good Answers: 17
#6
In reply to #5

Re: "HEATING WELDS AFTER TEST" GOOD OR BAD PRACTICE AT CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRY ?

01/17/2009 8:57 PM

Thanks - but I am registered

My name is "Guest." - note the period.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: "Dancing over the abyss."
Posts: 4884
Good Answers: 243
#8
In reply to #6

Re: "HEATING WELDS AFTER TEST" GOOD OR BAD PRACTICE AT CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRY ?

01/17/2009 9:16 PM

Sorry. I'm an old guy with presbyopia. And a high clock speed mind.

that period is too subtle to see through my shades.

Nice post all the same.

milo

__________________
People say between two opposed opinions the truth lies in the middle. Not at all! Between them lies the problem, what is unseeable,eternally active life, contemplated in repose. Goethe
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
United States - Member - Charter Member Engineering Fields - Instrumentation Engineering - Charter Member

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The People's Republic of Massachusetts
Posts: 1946
Good Answers: 73
#7
In reply to #5

Re: "HEATING WELDS AFTER TEST" GOOD OR BAD PRACTICE AT CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRY ?

01/17/2009 9:14 PM

Ya Milo, WAKE UP! He's not "Guest", He's "Guest.".

And yes GA.

__________________
I go into every human encounter expecting to be framed for a crime I didn't commit. Dilbert, 2013
Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#11
In reply to #7

Re: "HEATING WELDS AFTER TEST" GOOD OR BAD PRACTICE AT CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRY ?

09/21/2009 7:45 AM

CR4 ADMIN: Deleted Post

Vulgar/Rude/Improper Behavior: This post was deleted because it did not adhere to the behavioral policies of the site. Please review Section 14of the CR4 Site FAQ and the CR4 Rules of Conduct.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2550
Good Answers: 103
#9

Re: "HEATING WELDS AFTER TEST" GOOD OR BAD PRACTICE AT CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRY ?

01/18/2009 12:30 AM

And also this Guest. comes with an underline - other guest are un-lined

__________________
Fantastic ideas for a Fantastic World, I make the illogical logical.They put me in cars,they put me in yer tv.They put me in stereos and those little radios you stick in your ears.They even put me in watches, they have teeny gremlins for your watches
Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Model Rocketry - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: East of Seattle, Washington state Republic of the 50 states of America
Posts: 2045
Good Answers: 36
#10

Re: "HEATING WELDS AFTER TEST" GOOD OR BAD PRACTICE AT CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRY ?

01/18/2009 2:47 AM

GABRIELALEJANDRO, there is an old show called Lost in Space. The robot goes "Danger Will Robinson Danger" This is one of those times.

They may last a day, a week, a year, but they will not last for long.

As stated by s b (GA by the way) the stress is not relieved. Failure is already set unless it is fixed. Even the nonheat treated joints that were cut, bent, and rewelded have stress points that you will find amazing. Check out holographic interferometry on some of your fixed pieces and some on specification pieces. A change in temperature will show every fault on both sets.

And yes you have a management issue and a liability issue. Even if the welds hold, if something goes wrong they will take one look at that, check the certs, point the finger and your company will then have to prove them wrong and may even share liability anyway.

Brad

__________________
(Larrabee's Law) Half of everything you hear in a classroom is crap. Education is figuring out which half is which.
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Register to Reply 11 comments

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Anonymous Poster (1); Bricktop (2); Dances with Trees (1); Guest. (2); Milo (2); sb (2); U V (1)

Previous in Forum: Heat thru glass   Next in Forum: Instrument from SS or nonmagnetic materials?

Advertisement