Cable Sizes for Lights and Power Sockets?

Hi there how you doing.? In my opinion you shoud use 6mm cable. Why? Because the distance betwen mainpower and the work place is a bit big so like that you have to consider what you will lose on the way, so you will not consume just 10 A by the lights. Also try to use an iron conduct to involve the cable it also can help you.

what is an iiron conduct and would 3 seperate cables work instaed and how many volts would i get at the end and amps cheers Andrew

British Standard 7671.

4 sqmm, copper wire is good enough, as voltage drop will not be so high

Using a #8 cable for that distance will give a 1.1 voltage drop per amp. #6 would be .7 volts per amp. #4 would be .41 volts per amp. #2 would be .3 volts per amp. #1 would be .25 volts per amp, and 1.0 would be .2 volts per amp. These are off a voltage drop calculator I have but the only thing about it is it does not tell what insulation is required.

I take it that these numbers are AWG values?

Yes. If you are just running a couple 100 watt light bulbs and maybe a drill I don't understand the big deal about all the codes and regulations

Some aspects of codes and regulations are indeed irrelevant to some installations (and in these cases non-compliance can be legalised by qualified sign-off). However, it is folly to do this without both full knowledge of the intended use and some way of being certain that actual use is only as intended. Yes, the present situation sounds domestic - but 250-m from base, it becomes the obvious place to plug in that electric hedge trimmer or chainsaw.

Add to this that the questioner has admitted his lack of specific expertise, and

thanks could i use three seperate cables instead for phase neutral earth cheers Andrew

First, you do need to ensure that the wiring complies with local regulations. Some regional differences may appear arbitrary, but climate and quality of supply can also dictate differences. Other differences can be that in some regions regulations are only sufficient to ensure safety - so the following notes may help understand some functional issues:

Each 4-sq-mm core will have a resistance of just over 1-Ohm. So at 10-Amps you will lose a total of just over 20-Volts.

But many types of equipment require much higher currents at turn-on than their nominal rating; examples include radiant electric heaters, tungsten lighting (especially tungsten-halogen), and electric kettles (other than the types with flat ceramic heaters in the base). However, electric motors are by far the worst culprits in this respect.

So, you may (just) get away with 4-mm wiring if you will never at any time exceed 10-amps actual load. However, if (like most countrymen) you end up using varied bits of equipment from the extension, it will not be satisfactory. Given the economics, I would probably start with 6-sq.mm ("cooker") cable, but I would not be surprised if you find that you need to run a second 6-sq.mm cable in parallel - so you should ensure that your connectors are suitable. (N.B IEE regulations require the Voltage drop be less than 2.5% of nominal Voltage at nominal load - that would be 5.75 Volts, and would require a core area of 14-sq-mm. It is also worth checking the drops for your specific cables under your midsummer conditions, as practical cable seldom gives as low resistance as pure copper (which I have used).

Not to be omitted:
A suitably-rated fuse or circuit-breaker at the supply end of the cable.
A 100-mA RCD at the supply end of the cable
A 25-mA RCD at the output end of the cable
Note that (subject again to regulations) the above precautions mean that the diameter of the earth wire in this cable does not need to be as large as that of the power conductors.

I also failed to mention that both safety and regulations will also constrain how you suspend the wire. There will be a maximum freely hung length, but this may be extended by supporting from a steel cable; and don't try to economise on slack.

thanks for your fabulous input very helpfull sorry no local regs to consider but need it to be safe cheers Andrew

I am confused. Based on certain clues I suspect you are in England. This may be why you're running the wires above ground (rocky soil, large protruding boulders and the occassional Stonehenge). Also, I believe the higher voltages you use may suffer less relative loss over longer distances. BUT - we seem to be guessing and setting you up for what could be a very expensive mistake. If this were the States you would have trouble with codes, if not immediately than when you go to sell the property. Liability could be an issue also. Also, the wire you select could dictate an even higher cost of casing and support. I think you should get a professional, LOCAL opinion from a few reputable electricians or even highly skilled general contractors. They will specify what you need in their bid, OR, to be upfront about it, you might be upfront about your intention to install this yourself and offer to pay them for their estimate. If times are slow some might be willing.

Practically, locaal codes are only one constraint. Maybe this isn't an issue where you live. But, as you say, you also want this to be an effective, safe and long-lasting installation that doesn't torch the countryside or fail to light your bulbs. You have to consider your source (possible source of code restrictions), your loads and maybe even your budget. Given all these constraints I wouldn't try to guess even if you're willing to over-design it.

I have a table that lists recommended wire guages as a function of load and length, but it is for LOW voltage, 24V DC outdoor lighting. I don't think it applies but it came with the transformer. Surely a google search can point you to both the guage and housing codes for your area, if you want to avoid the cost of a professional.

I am not normally a stickler for code, but this is high voltage and could get expensive at just under 240 yards or so. Where do you plan to fuse the line? You may want to over-design it so you can protect the source and also provide a closer reset.

Just my opinion.

thanks for your answer have replyed to others could you read these answers cheers andrew

Hello Guest,

http://www.csedistributors.co.uk/cable/low-smoke-fume-swa-cable.htm

http://www.csecables.com/power-cable/power-swa-cable.asp

I hope you are taking notes on the advice given here. There is a couple of good poster here. Others I am not sure about entirely. I think the name was 'Tandra' who asked "why it matters if it is just going to be a few hundred metres"? When standards are either implicit or, absolutely ignored, at that persons own life be it! This is a professional site and for a post to say something so ridiculous, is outrageous!!!

Very basic guidelines.

In the UK there is two basic grades of wiring used indoors and undercover of some sort. It may be indoors, in a pipe or conduit to an external building, shed, garage etc, but, always covered and not open to the sun and weather.

The other type is Armoured Cable. It is either single, double or three core (usually, and has a steel web surrounding the inner copper cable/s.

Provision must be made for an EARTH on this cable.

Always use a....... >--- half-hitch ---< .......at either end, allow for this to be lower than the termination box. That way no water can run along the cable and into the installation at either end!

Always use proper connections!............A 'twist and tie' joint with electric taped insulation, is potentially dangerous.

This should be done with a single length of cable!

You should use an isolated fuse micro-trip-switch type circuit breaker.

The junction at the house or place the cable is taken from needs its own fuse board. Or at least its own permanent micro-second-trip-switch.

I have tried to enclose some UK and US and Indian details.

I have always used the correct gauge for power. A totally different gauge for lighting. However, if, as seems the case here, this could be a semi permanent fixed line, it has to be power capable type cable.

You can use a power saw on a power line.

You cannot use a power saw on a lighting line! ........... EVER!

Outdoor cable has different insulating than indoor types. Solar, and weathering, wind and snow, can crack and weaken indoors grade cable. Personally I would always go for 'Armoured Cable', and properly configured joints with no strain, no danger of ANY water or snow, moister of any kind creeping into the copper itself.

The standards are there also to keep people safe!

If this cabling is almost ¼ Km long., how can anyone know what is going on between the exit of the cable from the supply to the final use end?

If there is a way for it to be damaged it will. If there is the slightest chance of a kid, or animal tampering with it, then use Armoured Cabling. And you could also think of using steel conduit. That way you will have proper joints and, as long as you use external conduit it will be safe. Or a heavy polythene plastic pipe, flexible and strong.

You may be using this and know what you can use on it.

someone else uses it they could put five or six extensions off the one cable with electric fires or cookers. And the cable you use has to be up to standard to take that.

IEEE Industry Applications Magazine

Originally written so that either IEC or North American ... SWA is a very-high-strength, durable cable ... ible than SWA cable. This durable cable is used in ...
ieeexplore.ieee.org/iel5/2943/19329/00893364.pdf?arnumber=893364 - Similar pages
by PS Babiarz - 2001 - All 3 versions

IET Forums - When do we use SWA cable ?3 posts - Last post: 7 Jun 2008Is there any precise regulation number of where to mechanically protect a cable and use SWA cable? Does it have to be SWA if layed on cable ...
www.theiet.org/forums/Forum/messageview.cfm?catid=205&threadid=24797 - 79k - Cached - Similar pages

how to terminate swa cable - Voltimum UK - Electrical Installation ...

How-to terminate swa cable: Termination of SWA Cables - [...] relation to the termination of SWA cables. On some flats I recently inspected at a project the ...
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Power, Power Cable Accessories - Power, Power Cable Accessories ...

View Power, Power Cable Accessories sell leads - numerous sell trade ... External Territories of Australia, Falkland Islands, Faroe Islands .... We are one of the most trusted wholesale suppliers & merchant exporters of Air Circuit Breakers. ... Armoured Cable, Unarmoured Cable, Control Cable, Submersible (pol . ...
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While North American cable glands employ a stan- ... Purchasing cable from reliable suppliers dimin- .... Consequently, the hot spot is measured external to. the fixture. ... While many North American engineers use in- ...
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forums.fieldbus.org/showthread.php?p=2721 - 88k - Cached - Similar pages

Final advice, No 'short cuts', from frustration or a rushed job. You cannot take risks. ALWAYS WORK SAFE. Others will be safe then!

Good luck and I know only what the working practice in the UK is. It is somewhat more 'lax' on the Continent (Europe). I have given advice as this is what I have done and will do in the future in the States, perhaps.

Take care.......................

Superb answer for a static set-up.

We use 3-phase and 240V on mobile equipment, some of our jobs are 100m or more from any suitable access for our generators. In these cases, armoured cable is used in 50m lengths, for ease of carrying as longer lengths require at least 2 people to carry them, often over difficult terrain.

Hello GM1964:

I am assuming you refer to my post as yours is directly underneath?

Getting all this advice, I bet he buys the cheapest un-armoured wire and runs it?

I was going to mention that if he was to use a conduit or flexible pipe to hold the Armoured cable it would pay him to lay the pipe, which I would think came coiled on a reel, flat on the ground, and tie a bolt that is heavy but must fit through without jamming, onto some strong thread, and gradually 'walk' down the length shaking and feeling to push the weight to the other end. Tie some string to the thread and pull it through. Then tie the string to the cable tightly! And pull it through, But at this point, if he is able to use one length of cable and one pipe he will need to hold the pipe very hard, and get a friend to slowly pull the cable though using the tow on a car?

I have never used longer than 50 ft, how do you joint the lengths together?Do they have a water proof connection such as you find on a 240/110 volt transformer for big drills etc?

Take care!

Hi babybear,

Yes I was.

We connect to a road tow generator using IP44 connectors like these - but we are rarely on a site for more than a few days, otherwise IP67 would be the choice.

On the submerged equipment we go for something a little more watertight.

Hello GM1964:

I had very similar ones to the first lot you show the link to. As I say, I doubt the OP with bother with any of this at all. I just hope he does not regret it.

Take care my friend...............

bb

Hi babybear,

I am hopeful that the original poster will take note of these comments - at least the question was asked, rather than just guessing (ever seen the results of using bell wire to run 50m through dry grass to a 500W floodlight? Unfortunately, I didn't video it)

It would be nice if they would post their specific use, and how helpful they found this discussion.

Hello GM1964:

I have seen the results of a neighbour trying to put 100 60 w indoor lights and bulbs in a xmas tree. The wire on the tree was fine but as you say, in this case bell wire started a fire that burned down this mans shed with all the xmas pressies! Common sense can be expensive sometimes?

As the OP wrote in to ask we can but hope? But I would have thought they would have posted a reply by now?

Oh well, we are not magicians! If it is going to happen, we cannot stop it!

Take care..............................

thanks for your coments on this ,im in new zealand and are wanting to run this power to a house im going to build . this is 240m from my power supply that i have on at the begining of my property, i will put in another mains switch for this, it will be run above ground on wire, there will be no oven or jug or oven or toaster used on it , a skill saw a drill etc used one at a time will be used ,and then 40 watt lights inside or smaller ,what i need to now if 4mm or 6mm will do the job ,no permit and if property is sold this will be not left there cheers andrew.

Hello Guest,

Can I ask you to join or use a 1 before or after your name please. I and others have no idea to whom we are talking if they are listed as 'Guest'. It would not usually matter but you wanted to know details and I do not want to be answering another guest thinking it is you ?

Having said that I can leave you in the very capable hands of Physicist and others.

It sounds like you have the life I would like as well! I am not one for laying down the 'Law' when it comes to Electricity. Better people than I have done the spade work for the power ratings and design of water-proof cable joints etc.

I have seen it written you should follow any local design specific to your area. But you also are an honest man and you have been very straight with me and others. I am sure you want to fit this cable then forget about it? I feel you are going to do a good job. When you take into account the cost of your house, the actual cost of cable and joints which are waterproof and, anything else proof!.......Is very small. But it is the only power you have. So ask anything you feel you need to do.

I said at the end of my long post that I was talking from the UK point of view. I would imagine armoured (or armored) cable is the same the world over. That is if you are sure you want to use armoured to run overground? It is pretty heavy and I would think the length you need would weigh perhaps 200 Kg? Guessing there but it is heavy.

I can only advise you on this armoured cable.......And there would be other quite expensive outlays for special supports and insulators, as they use on pylons? But using armoured cable you have no need to worry about that. I know another person I was talking to this morning on your thread has left links to a good selection of cable joints. I will check but, I recall using some that you pushed the plug into the socket and then there was a steel or ally ring that screwed the joint together. I will check that out.

Take care...........It would be really nice for you to join and or send 'as it happens' pics so we can see how the build is going?

Bye for now.

Hello Guest,

I have found some sites in New Zealand which may help you.

Codes of Practice | Electricity Acts, Regulations and Codes | For ...

NZECP 41:1993: New Zealand Electrical Code of Practice for Single Wire Earth Return Systems [ Published 18 March 1993 ] New Zealand Electrical Code of ...
www.energysafety.govt.nz/templates/StandardSummary____18586.aspx - 38k - Cached - Similar pages -

• [PDF] Demonstrate knowledge of electrical cables, accessories and lamps ... File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
  alternating voltages up to and including 0.6/1kV – Typical New Zealand ... armoured (SWA);. evidence of two required;. electrical cables – control ... Restrictions on the use of Tru-rip and other single insulation types of flexible ...
  www.nzqa.govt.nz/nqfdocs/units/pdf/23752.pdf - Similar pages -

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Take care..............

were theres a will theres a way cheers

how about i run 3 seperate cables each being 4mm 3core for this supply would that work and how many amps could i draw on this, one for phase one for neutral one for earth cheers Andrew.

Hi your distance of 240 meters is a bit of a run!

4mm or 6 ga wire Multi strand wire is rated at approx 0.4 ohms per 1000 feet or 305 meters.

So you can expect approx 0.3 ohms resistance on a single 4mm wire at that distance.

If its single phase you might find 0.6 ohms resistance and a 10 - 12 v drop at 230v with a 10 amp load. If you went to a 5mm or 4ga your voltage drop would be less then 8 volts.

This all depends on the wire your using and the resistance value per meter!

If its three phase the drop will be less!

A warning: we need to be careful about definitions. 6-AWG wire is about 4.1-mm in diameter, and has an area of about 13.2-sq.mm. This is very different from the 4-sq.mm wire that is often casually abbreviated as "4-mm". You would need to use 5-AWG wire to meet European requirements (= 2.5% of Voltage) at 10-Amp load over this distance. And, assuming you are suspending it you would have to use reinforced and UV-resistant cabling. Alternatively, you might run it inside a pipe - this could either be buried 1-m deep or supported above the ground (in which case the pipe would need to be wildlife-resistant and UV-absorbent).

yes this is single phase, do you think it would get to hot it will be above ground on wire cable cheers Andrew

You should have an electrical code in your municipality that will specify the type, size and insulation values, etc.

You need to contact them to determine the minimum requirements, and where they base their codes. In ther USA, we use the National Electrical Code that is written by NFPA. Each municipality either adopts the code, or modifies their requirements.

thanks this is in n.z in the far north the final frontier i cant afford much but it has to be safe need to run a power saw or drill like a big extention lead to build house cheers Andrew

The main reason for the regulations requiring such small Voltage drops is that series resistance becomes very significant when used with motors. The result is that motors are more likely to stall when in use - and this can cause dangerous restarts with power saws, hedge trimmers (and worst of all chain-saws - though I don't believe anyone who is both knowledgeable and in their right mind would ever risk using an electric chainsaw anyway).

So, don't skimp on the wiring area - it's just not worth it. Regarding your question about multiple parallel cables - so long as they are of similar lengths and well terminated you can simply add the areas. But unless the type of cable you choose happens to be used very extensively in your area, that is unlikely to save you much money, and will be quite a lot of hassle.

Thank you for all your feedback on my question,has been a great help ,will post an answer when finished my project cheers Andrew.NZ.