Antique Koken Barber Chair Repair

I Googled: Antique Koken Barber Chair Repair and got lots of sites.

I also googled but none of the sites seemed to address the problem or to point me in a new direction.

Hi,

This is just a long shot, but koken chairs use hydraulic cylinders just like heavy equipment machinery. There should be some hydraulic shops who rebuild cylinders in your area that might be able to give you a hand in this problem.

I've been in the millwrighting trade for 15 years, and to me a hydraulic cylinder is a hydraulic cylinder regardless of its age. Any good hydraulic shop should be able to repair this cylinder for you.

Hope this helps,

Regards,

Don

Hi PatR,

There was an earlier CR4 discussion on a similar topic, http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/33068#comment345079 You may pick up some clues from the thread or there may be some posters you might want to contact.

Good luck

About 15 years ago a barer shop local here had the same problem,

I have no clue if it was the same brand or not.

Just about any local machine shop that does single item repairs should be able to help you rebuild it, as it does not spin at high speeds like an engine it should be an easy fix.

Any of your friends that are back yard mechanic should be able to help you get it apart to find the seal. Once the seal is in hand look for numbers on it, if you can't find any numbers, get as many measurements as you can of the space for the seal.

Inside outside of the diameter of the seal and thickness as well.

That will help you find the right seal to fix it.

Good luck with it.

Please let me know how it goes.

Later

Lee

The seal is probably a standard size available from many sources.You will have to get down to the seal level and remove the old one for reference.There should be numbers in it.If no numbers are available,you will have to mike the shaft diameter, the bore diameter and the depth of the seal.

Some older seal assemblies used a glan nut.You could actually increase sealing pressure by tighteing it.Look for a large hex nut surrounding the shaft, and screwed into the cylinder.

A thinner seal will sometimes work if all other dimensions are the same.

Good luck.

SSB

The system is probably similar to older dental chairs. Find a local medical equipment supply company. Should be an easy fix for them.

did you get a response to this yet? I have the same problem and do not know what type of seal to use

Mine won't go down.... how do you make it bleed off the fluid and come down???? I have a 1930's Koken.. To fix the seal is easy take the chair off and tip the base over. The oil will come out then take off the four bolts that hold the end of the cylinder. Remove the cylinder and take to a industrial supply place an the will sell you a seal... reassemble.... On mine it dosen't leak it pumps up then wont go down I've taken it mostly apart but can't release the fluid to return to the floor.?????

hi. im sure you know this .but if not you push the handle down. while sitting in the chair push the handle forward tell it stops. some time you have some what forcefull. but dont break the handle. a.c

it looks to me like when you press the handle all the way down (past the point where you usually pump it up) the piston on the inside of the cylinder will be raised enough to open a passage way for the oil to return to the other side of the cylinder and thereby allowing the chair to lower... I have my chair torn apart right now and it is evident that this is the way it works... either your handle is not raising the piston enough (it should be held in place by a set screw) or the connecting rod is wornout..? when I took mine apart there was old hair inside the cylinder - it is possible that could be a problem as well...? you'll have to take it apart no matter so you may as well - if you need any help - drop me a line.. rfarmer@homenetnw.net good luck..

You are right on target with your assessment. He is dealing with the same thing I am. Give it a whirl and take it apart or have someone help you. If I can help I am at towardsparadise@aol.com

I have rebuilt several chairs and am in the process of restoring a 1925 koken chair myself. There are no seals on these units. It's an all metal sleeve that fits into the cylinder. My guess is that that the valve at the bottom of the piston is stuck and dirty. Simply dismantle the entire thing, clean it thoroughly and start with fresh oil. It will work fine and will not leak. These things are simple beasts and easily repaired.

I need some help. I am trying to restore a 1910s something koken barber chair. It was my father's and I have had it in a box in pieces for 30 years. I am having problems figuring out how the chair is mounted to the platform. Does the main frame of the chair just sit on the platform of the metal base only connected by the rod and steel bracket on the leg portion of the main frame. Any and all help is appreciated. This chair has a lot of sentimental value for me as my dad was a barber and when I recovered his chair it was in a collapsed building and the roof was missing so you can image the condition it is in. Thanks, Dean

Dean, what does yours look like. I have about 100 pictures of mine while I took it apart and put it back together last year. Maybe some of these pictures would help you. Send me a picture at stenicilyg@yahoo.com and I'll send you pictures of mine that show how it goes together and came apart. Mine is from the 1920's from what I've been able to find through internet research. Steve

How do I get the Pump handle off of the shaft that goes in the cylinder

There should be a set screw at the base of the pump handle, unscrew and pull up on the ball of the handle and the handle will should come off. good luck

Depends on the type of chair you have... I've see set screws, taper pins, roll pins...

Got a picture of what yer dealing with?

In a previous life, I made my living repairing barber and salon chairs in and around the Denver area. So...

As previously stated, with truly antique barber chairs, there are no replaceable seals inside. Some have leather seals, but in my 20+ years of experience, I came across ONE that had come apart requiring replacement. Mostly, what you're dealing with is metal-to-metal contact. Use a heavy fluid in your chair, I used non-detergent 30W motor oil... works good... lasts a long time...

If you follow the pump handle down, it'll turn 90º and 'disappear' under the seat of your chair. Just before the shaft goes inside the workings, there will be a protrusion sticking out (forward) which acts on a spring loaded plunger. This spring, holds the handle in the 'pumping position' if the handle is released at the bottom of it's stroke. Without this spring, the weight of the handle would lower further causing the release valve inside the pump to open.

Inspect this spring, if it is broken, it could be coil-binding causing the handle to not go fully into the release mode. If the spring is not broken, the mechanism which holds the spring is adjustable. If you turn the mechanism counter-clockwise (laying on your back, looking up at the workings under the side of the chair), the chair will release faster, use the 'a-little-is-a-lot' approach when adjusting this mechanism.

Good luck with your chair.

Ive got a question for you regarding a Koken Triumph Barber chair , i cannot for the life of my get the thing to lift..ive tried pushing the handle forward and backwards but it will not move! i can twist the top of the handle to make the chair recline, but the chair will not lift or rotate. i put SOME hydraulic fluid into the reservoir but i did not fill it.. prior to putting in the fluid i did notice that it was still wet and coated with fluid in the reservoir so i assumed that was a good sign. i know about making assumptions...lol however is it possible the chair is seized? its in excellent condition otherwise. can you offer me some advice?

From your description, it sounds as though the brake shoe has 'seized'. This would cause the chair not to rotate. Not a big deal, though, actually quite common even in chairs used on a daily basis. Now the bad news... the usual method of breaking the shoe loose is to wind up and kick the handle forward with your foot. Which may have been done in the past. Normally, the shoe would dislodge and all would be well. Possibly, one of the 'sacrificial' bolts/fasteners may have broken before the shoe broke loose.

Without actually seeing your chair, I can't recall what type of inner workings you have connecting the handle to the business end (piston/valve and rod assembly) inside the base.

Remove the seat cushion of the chair (should just 'lift off'). There are four bolts which hold the chair assembly to the base. In the center of those four bolts is a larger hole, probably where you added the hydraulic fluid, no?

Pump the handle of the chair whilst looking down into the workings of the base. Is the shaft the handle is attached to rotating back and forth with each pump? If so, there is a 'rod' connected to the shaft, about an inch and a half 'forward' of the shaft (towards the foot rest) which goes down in the base and connects to the piston. Is that rod going up and down with the handle pumping? If it is, the problem lies deeper. Possibly a broken rod (you can check this by attempting to move the rod with your finger, press it one way or the other - forward or back - it shouldn't move much, if at all. Lateral movement is ok.)

Also, true hydraulic fluid is typically not heavy enough for use in an older barber chair. Use 30w, non-detergent motor oil. It's cheap and there isn't enough 'frothing' going on in the base to worry about cavitation.

Let me know what you find.

this is the link to a picture of the chair if it helps you any, i will try Kicking the handle forward and see what happens...and under the seat is a little hole with a cover that slides away to fill the fluid, i will try adding the oil you suggested to see if it works thanks for you reply http://i.oodleimg.com/item/1810495535u_1x?1266608939

Don't add any more oil until you get the chair 'unstuck' ... if the chair is stuck in a raised position, and you add too much oil, when you get it unstuck, and lower the chair, the oil may overflow out the top.

The oil level isn't critical (so long as there's not too much), once the chair achieves maximum lift, a 'bleeder circuit' (actually, just a 'trough' cast into the base cylinder, but 'bleeder circuit' sounds better, lol) kicks in to keep the chair from pumping itself right out of the base... remember the old Bugs Bunny "Barber deSeville" where Bugs and Mr. Fudd were involved in a barber chair race? Right through the roof as they kept pumpin' away...

Anyway, good luck.

I have a question concerning the release valve. My chair is a wood and metal chair from around 1900. I assume the release valve is at the bottom of the housing that lifts the chair. The valve is a brass part with a spring and "rubberlike washer" that fits into and seals the hole. The "rubberlike washer" is somewhat disintegrated. The brass part has some thread that this "rubberlike washer" perhaps screws onto and holds the "rubberlike washer" in place. But the washer will not stay screwed on. The spring will push through the hole of the washer that allows the brass part to be pushed up and out of its hole. I took another metal washer and redrilled the hole on that washer to fit the thread on the brass part. This will hold the "rubberlike washer" on and not allow the spring to push the brass part out of place. If this is a rubber washer should I replace it? Where could one find a part like this rubber washer. Any and all suggestions are appreciated. Thanks, Dean

After I removed all the rust from the pump and worked on the release valve, it will work. But the "rubberlike washer"--when you rub it between your fingers, pieces of it will come off. I think it needs to be replaced. There was no oil in the pump and no nut on the brass part. This chair was in an old store in which the roof was damaged in a storm and the roof began leaking over the chair. This chair was my father's chair (he was a barber) and I so much want to restore it for sentimental reasons. By the time I was able to get the chair, there was water instead of oil in the pump. The chair had broken into many pieces. Even a lot of the dowels are broken and the wood pieces will have to be reglued. I have some metal parts at a welding shop to be welded. I have had this chair stored in a box for over 30 years and moved it all over Texas. Now that I have retired I want to restore it completely. My next task will be to get the metal parts replated with nickel. Do you have any hints about replating. I do appreciate your help because I did not know what to do with this washer. Thanks so much, Dean

You're right with the nickel plating, stay away from chrome... "That's just not NATURAL!" LOL.

I've never done or seen the process, however, I had one base ring done for a guy. Possibly just luck on my part, but I picked a good shop on my first try... they made some recommendations on filling/grinding some of the pitted areas on the ring. It came out real nice.

It's kinda like auto body work... preparation is 95% of the job...

I am attempting to send pictures of the "washer". Does this appear to need to be this thick since there is no room for a nut? Do you think this is the original "washer" or has someone in the past already modified it? Thanks for your help. Dean

I believe the seal is rubber. The seal was modified by someone since my father was a barber in the late 1930s and the chair was old then. The metal washer is what I added in order to keep the brass part from being pushed up into the piston chamber. Since I do not know how a leather seal would be shaped or the thickness of the leather seal and do not have the original nut, I suppose I will look for a rubber o-ring. Thanks for all your help. Dean

I am having a hard time finding a rubber washer that will fit. I hope the close-up pics comes out. Could this be hardened leather? Can you tell me what the original leather seal look like (size, how thick, and anything else)? thanks for all the help, Dean

From the pic, it looks to be made of foam rubber! LOL

Again, I'm not sure EXACTLY what the innards of your chair look like... it's been about 10 years since I had one apart.

What you're looking for is something which will plug the cavity in the bottom of the piston where the release valve resides. If you were to take some Play-Doh and press it into the space where the valve normally sits, you'd get the basic shape of the seal you need.

IIRC, the one I had made was about 1/4" thick - and tapered inward from bottom to top. Kinda like a slice made by cutting the bottom quarter inch off of a cone. Obviously with a hole in the center to fit over the brass stem.

Hi Herr,

I wonder if you can help me out. I have 2 Belmont barber chairs that are in excellant shape. They tilt back, swivel, lock in place, but the chair will not pump up, the handle moves,it just can't raise the chair. These are the one's that are all chrome base all around the bottom. I had some one pump the handle while I lifted it up and it stays up that way.Please help me out. I have also tried to add more oil but that just caused overflow. email gandebuscemi@sympatico.ca

Are both your chairs exhibiting the same symptoms? Won't pump up?

When you 'lifted' your chair, were you able to lower it? or is it still in the 'up' position?

Thank you so much for all the right answers on my Kochs 1920 chair

Herr Thanks for your advice it was RIGHT ON THE MONEY!!! one swift kick to the handle freed them up, and they work nicely, i just need to add a little more fluid as it gets so high then i hear it gurgling . but as long as i got them working i can now sell them..lol Your advice was priceless!!! Bob

I am restoring a Theo A Kochs chair (circa 1920-30's). It immediately and fully reclines when someone sits in it, and swivels around and around. I am guessing it has to do with the brake but I don't know how to operate it. The handle has two parts. The base part coming out of the base has a notch in it, and the handle part that fits into it has a small nub that sits in the notch. I can barely move the nub left and right in the notch...not more than 2 mm. I can't pull it up and out of the notch.

The pump works fine to pump it up and down.

How do I fix the reclining issue and the swivel issue? Do I have a broken brake from the sounds of it. Where is the brake? Is it easy to access if it is the brake to fix? I have been on several forums, and you seem to be the most knowledgeable of anyone that I can find when it comes to antique barber chairs. Thanks Sam

The recline and swivel are two separate issues.

To apply the brake you pull the pump handle back hard (a relative term, you're dealing with an 80 year old machine--be gentle!)... to release the recline you twist the pump handle outward.

The recline could simply be a cleaning and adjustment. I don't know how many chairs I worked on that had 60 year old grease 'lubricating' the upper mechanism.

It's been a few years since I looked at a Koch chair. If you could post a pic of the recline mechanism, maybe I could point out which screws/bolts to adjust.

The lack of 'brake' may be a bigger problem. Have you had the base apart? Somewhere in the movable cylinder (usually towards the 'front' as you sit in the chair) is the brake shoe...typically a 'hunk' of metal which is forced outward by a ramp on the piston. So you should be looking for the brake shoe down in the vicinity of the piston stroke. Work the pump handle back and forth at the top of its stroke and look for the brake shoe to be moving. Shouldn't be too hard to spot, it's the only thing on the outside wall of the movable cylinder that 'moves'.

Let me know what you find.

Thank you for the guidance and help. I followed your directions...and I have taken some pictures but I am not sure how to attach them within this message. I registered on the site so that I could attach photos but do not see the option. Would you have an e-mail address that I could send them to?

Uncontrollable Reclining not locking....I have taken some pictures. I would appreciate your help identifying what type of grease, and where and how to apply it. I see a hole on the top of the arm rod inside the base that looks to be a spot to lubricate but it looks like I could only get oil in it. I see that as I twist the arm, it is pushing a rod through the middle of the arm, and placing some pressure on what looks like a clamp/spring that inturn pushes on the rod that attaches to the leg rest. Secondly, do I need to lube the spot inside the chrome plated box on the outside of the base, where this clamp and rod (that attaches to the leg rest) goes through?

Swiveling....I have taken a photo of the cyclinder. I may have figured this one out. It looks like someone completely removed the brake shoe from the cyclinder.

Again, thanks for your help. I have been on four barber chair forums, and you seem to be the only one that has knowledge of these chairs, and is willing to share with those of us that want to learn your trade. Sam

The easiest way to lube everything is to disassemble the chair workings... I just used axle grease on the 'obvious' spots.

The rod you see moving as you twist the handle is the one which releases the recline mechanism (clean the old grease off it, I used WD-40 and a rag, then coat the entire rod with a thin film of grease). IIRC, at the end of the rod (opposite the handle) there is a large 'set' screw that is acted on by the rod. Loosen this screw until it no longer makes contact with the rod (make sure the handle is in the 'rest' position, not turned outward).

There should also be a couple bolts holding some heavy springs which allow the clamp/spring to hold onto the rod which attaches to the leg rest. Tighten those two bolts 'evenly' to apply enough pressure on the clamp/spring so the rod (that goes to the leg rest) doesn't move freely.

Go back to the 'set' screw and tighten it until it makes contact with the sliding rod (the one coming from the handle). Rotate the handle outward while observing the clamp/spring to make sure the clamp is moving. If it's not moving, tighten the 'set' screw a LITTLE more.

Try this, if it's not working, we'll swap pics and give it another go.

Hi Sir,

Again thank you for guidance. I am not sure how to get the rod out to clean and grease it. When I twist the handle, the rod comes out about a 1/2 inch. there is a set screw on that end where the rod pushes out. Are you saying that I by loosening/removing that set screw, I will be able to pull the rod out of the shaft so that I can clean and grease it. I am having issues get the set screw out. The head is a standard screw but the groove is almost completely worn...so I thought I would double check with you...before taking that challenge.

This Theo A Kochs does NOT have the two large screws with the springs for me to evenly tighten. When I went crazy and purchased this chair, I also purchased a second one that I found in an old barn. It is an Undeland (made in Omaha, NE) around 1914...and it has the two screws/springs so I know what you are talking about. This Theo A Kochs has a much different mechanism. When twisted, the arm rod pushes a small bolt with a spring that seems to clamp on the leg rest rod. The leg rest rod has six holes drilled into it. Almost looks like the small bolt with the spring is pushed by the rod into one of those six holes. If you would like, you can send an e-mail to myhuskers@yahoo.com, and I will attach photos of this mechanism. Thanks.

hi. i have 2 koken chairs from the 50s pres. 1 works just fine but the other the handle wont move its not moveing back or forward. but it was reclining and the handle was turning sideways. when i seen the set screw under the seat. well i losend it and when i didnt get it back just right it would not recline. then i over tightend the bolt i stripped it. now i have a stripped set screw and the handle is still stuck. i seen where someone said to give it a good kick to free the handle. i thought about that but thought i would break it. if anybody can help please tell me where i can get one of those set screws. and does the kick the handle apply here. any help well be great.thanks AL

HELLO, I'm new in this forum and most of these conversations are old, but I wanted to give a try..

I have a 1930's koken barber chair it goes up and it goes down but really slow it doesn't recline or locks in the recline position ,also is leaking oil from the bottom of the pump.. seal is broken.? Any help will be really appreciated thank you.

How do you put oil in the Koken chair? It lowers and raises a bit until it gurgles and won't go higher. Thanks

Lower the chair as far as possible.

Remove the seat... should just lift off.

In the center of the 'plate', where the seat cushion was removed, you'll either have a large opening (easy) or a small 'bottle cap'(a little harder). Twist off the bottle cap (if necessary) and pour in some 30w, non-detergent motor oil... go slowly, you want the level just BELOW the shaft that goes across the chair, the shaft that rotates back and forth when you attempt to pump up the chair. You can use a screw driver as 'dip stick' if necessary, maybe a flashlight, but don't over fill... the oil will spill out the sides of the chair if you do.

Good luck.

hi i have a old theo.a. kochs barber chair when you pull the handle back it should lock the chair from moveing side to side how do i fix ?thanks gb my e-mail maveric@metcast.com

The brake shoe is 'between' the outer cylinder and the piston and is actuated by a ramp on the piston. The piston is drawn up when you pull the handle up/back. Once the piston reaches the top of it's stroke (as you are pulling the handle back to 'lock' the chair ) the ramp pushes the brake shoe out, through a hole in the inner cylinder, making contact with the outer cylinder. The brake shoe is then effectively wedged between the outer cylinder and the piston ramp... the hole in the inner cylinder, which the brake shoe goes through, is then prevented from rotating.

Now for the 'bad' news... if your brake shoe is worn, you'll have to find a way to make it 'thicker' so it can bind between the ramp and the cylinder.

I've done it a couple ways... have a machine shop make you a new brake shoe... not exactly cheap or easy... Or... have a thin bead welded on the 'face' of the old shoe. By 'face' I mean the side that would contact the outer cylinder... leave the other side (that contacts the ramp ) alone or you'll end up locking your chair 'permanently' as the piston ramp won't slide easily on the new, welded surface.

If you choose to go with the 'weld' method, you'll have to grind down whatever bead is put on the face, as you only need an incredibly thin bead to make contact. (I used a feeler gauge, about .01 or so IIRC ). Have a bead welded across the top of the face and one across the bottom of the face, about 1/8 of an inch from the top/bottom.

Place the inner cylinder into the outer cylinder with the modified brake shoe in place. Work the handle like you're trying to lock the chair... chances are, you'll end up pulling it apart and grinding down a little more... go a little at a time... eventually, you'll get the correct thickness on your brake shoe.

Hello, I have a Theo Koch from 1952 and have this brake issue also. I took mine all apart and there doesn't even seem to be a brake there at all. Is it normally attached to the pin where the piston rod connects to the piston? I can see the holes in the inner cylinder, where it may go through to the outer cylinder...but nothing is there. any chance you would have a picture of one? Thanks for all your help and knowledge...I've had a very hard time getting info online and this has by far been the most informative forum I've found.

In a previos post you stated the following:

''If you follow the pump handle down, it'll turn 90º and 'disappear' under the seat of your chair. Just before the shaft goes inside the workings, there will be a protrusion sticking out (forward) which acts on a spring loaded plunger. This spring, holds the handle in the 'pumping position' if the handle is released at the bottom of it's stroke. Without this spring, the weight of the handle would lower further causing the release valve inside the pump to open.'

On my recent acquired Koken, the shaft does NOT allow the protrusion to act on the spring loaded plunger. The shaft and the protrusion appears to be 1/4 inch outside the plunger. In fact, I can see the shaft appears to be 1/4 inch away from what it appears to be screwed into at the base. The shaft is stuck in the forward position. Shaft turns to adjust seat recline and it allows me to lock and let the chair turn, but not go up or down and does not allow shaft to go to straight up/down PLEASE HELP

Sorry it's taken so long to get back...

Sounds like maybe the inner cross-wise shaft (which works the recline mech.) could be installed 'backwards'

Pull the seat cushion off your chair then remove the tin cover over the oil reservoir... you may have to loosen the four bolts holding the chair to the base to get the cover off...

There should be a set screw on the shaft underneath the tin cover plate with a (9/16?) nut securing the screw... loosen both of these (nut first... duh!)

Over on the side opposite from the pump handle is the lock for the recline... either loosen it or remove it.. this will allow you to pull the cross-shaft out (it's about 20-24" long so you MAY have to remove the chair from the base to get enough clearance to pull the shaft out... it's been so long I can't quite remember...)

Look at the shaft and about 2/5ths of the way down the length of the shaft is a machined 'indent'... this indent is where the previously loosened set screw/lock nut should settle (if the shaft is currently in 'backwards'... the set screw could be holding the shaft from sliding back and forth)

Keep us posted... and good luck...

I have a 40's koken chair and can't get it to recline. how do I release the brake? The Handle is white enamel with a ball on the end.

Thanks Mike

Under the seat, going from the chair base to the foot rest is a rod. Where this rod meets up with the chair base is the recline release mechanism. There are probably three large screws on this mechanism -- two hold the compression springs which give tension to the recline brake. The third screw is the recline adjustment. Tighten the third screw until it makes contact with the rod (this rod goes from the pump handle, across the chair to the recline mechanism.... a separate rod from the one going to the foot rest). You shouldn't need to go Herculean on this third screw... just tighten it til it seat with its rod. Oh, one other thing, make sure the rod/recline mechanism isn't rusted together... a shot of WD 40 in there wouldn't hurt a thing.

Have a helper 'work' the release handle on the pump while you look under the chair on the opposite side to get a feel for what is happening under there.

i was on ebay and found a manual for a koken chair that said when filling with hydralic oil pump the handle to allow the oil to fill the unit if you dont follow this instruction you would think the handle is leaking oil when in fact you may have to much oil in the chair

Would you be willing to share the manual or tell me where, on ebay, to find one?

I hope someone can help me out. I have an old Koken barber chair. When I pump it up the chair will go up, but when I put the handle down to start a new cycle the chair goes down. I now that if I go to far down this will release the pressure and the chair is supposed to go down. I can cycle the handle up and down many times and the chair will go up and down but sometimes it will actually stay in the up position (maybe an inch) then I can push the handle all the way down and the pressure will release. There is plenty of oil in the cylinder, I put 40 weight oil in it.

Any thoughts?

Thanks for any help or suggestions.

Sounds like you got a 'bugger' in your release valve, the spring tension has broken, or possibly the valve is coming apart.

The only way to know for sure it is to pull it apart. Good news is, you don't have to tear the whole base apart. There's a cover sleeve attached to the cylinder with 4 screws... pull the screws out and the sleeve should drop into the base (you'll have to retrieve it later, not hard to do). Pull the chair off from the base (four large bolts/nuts and the screws holding the recline arm to the foot of the chair), get some help lifting the chair off the base, it's HEAVY.

At this point you can pull the cylinder out of the base, there will be quite a bit of resistance as the oil in the chair has to flow through the various orifices as you pull up. Also, the brake shoe will probably fall off the face of the cylinder once you get it high enough. Catch the brake shoe and make note of where it goes.

The release valve is the one on the bottom of the cylinder.

I have a antique koken barber probably from the 20 or 30. I can not get it to pump up even after putting in a quart of hydrylic fluid. I also can not spin the chair. The pillar is frozen up and will not allow to pump up or move.

If your chair isn't rusted, the brake shoe is probably 'stuck'... the only way I know to get it loose is to wind up and kick the handle forward with your foot. Start with a relatively easy kick and work your way up...remember, the chair is almost a hundred years old, but the 'stuck brake shoe' is a very common malady even with chairs used on a daily basis.

Thank you Herr! I pulled the cylinder and looked at the bottom. I think I am missing some parts (and no they are not laying in the bottom on the tank) I have attached a

pic to see if anyone has one for sale.

That is the release valve in the recess on the bottom... it should be spring loaded from the inside of the cylinder. If you pull gently on the valve, it should come out slightly, then return back into position when released. If it doesn't return to its original position, possibly the spring is broken/loose on the inside. If it does spring back, maybe the seal has gone AWOL.

The chairs of that period didn't really follow any 'script' as far as build specifications, some used leather seals some just used metal to metal contact for sealing. If yours has/had a seal, and it is missing/damaged, you can have one made. I went to my local shoe repair guy (a rather pleasant older gentleman of Vietnamese decent) and he was able to make a seal for me out of old stock leather... worked great.

Continue tearing down your base, remove the piston from the cylinder and check the spring inside the cylinder, and look for anything between the valve and the cylinder that may be causing the valve not to close properly.

Does anyone have a general diagram or schematic drawing of a typical chair mechanism? This would be very helpful in understanding some of the Q & A's as well as being able to confidently fish around and learn for myself.

Thanks

Thanks Herr

The valve spring is working. I have pulled on the assy and it will pull down and spring back into place.

I will take your advise and use a piece of leather and washer to make a seal. I am not sure if leather was originally used or if it was steel valve. Either way I think I can make it work.

Thanks for your help!!!!

Hello, just wanted to say that I have a similar chair that i am working on that has a similar problem. You can look at my pics in 24 and 27 of this thread. I could not find any hard leather and I tried a soft rubber cork which gave problems with the back flow pressure when the release valve was engaged as it would clog up the opening and the chair would not go down. I then tried a 1/2L flat faucet washer this is neoprene and this seems to be holding and the pressure can be released. The size of the washer is 25/32"OD. Are you planning on plating the nickel? I am about 100 miles south of Dallas and am looking for someone who does a good job of nickel plating. My email address is deanplatt@yahoo.com if you would like to contact me. Good luck, Dean

Hello DP-1,

Thanks for the info! I will give your idea a try.

No I am not going to re-plate mine. I finally finished blasting everything down to bare metal and I am going to paint everything with POR15 with a top coat of gloss black. It should look pretty good with the green porcelin. I will put up a pic of the chair when it is all done.

Again thanks for the info! Also thanks to Herr out there. There are a lot of good people on this site!!!!

Hi -

I have an antique Padair that won't go up and down or tilt. I am not as concerned about it going up and down just yet and more focused on why the handle is stuck not allowing the chair to be reclined. I have tried the ol' swift kick trick to no avail. I have sprayed WD40 all around the parts and still no luck. Is there something else I should be doing to get the handle to move back and forth? Maybe I am not hitting it as hard as I should? Here is a pic:

I attempted to remove the handle all together, but can't get passed these pins:

They won't budge. Or, maybe they are not suppossed to budge? Is there a way to get the handle off here?

Any help is appreciated!

You said the chair "won't go up and down or tilt"... Up and down is obvious, rotating the chair is another thing, and reclining the chair is still another. 'Up and down' and 'rotating' are directly affected by the brake shoe. The recline mechanism is a whole different animal...controlled by that small shaft going from the bottom of the handle over towards the base of the chair.

If the chair won't go up or down (you can't pump the handle at all, correct?) and won't rotate, I'd say your brake shoe is stuck...I've never seen anything else cause those two problems together.

While you've got the chair apart, get a friend to help... have them grab the top of the handle in one hand, and the bottom of the handle (at the pivot) with the other. Have 'em attempt to 'pump the chair up' (the handle won't move, but put quite a bit of pressure on the handle). While they're applying pressure, take a long metal punch and a BFH and begin tapping the top of the connecting rod that goes from the cross shaft to the piston (in your last photo, it would be in the center of the square hole on the top of the base). There is a 'cam' that protrudes forward from the cross shaft. Attached to the free end of this cam is the connecting rod that goes down inside the chair to the piston. Place the punch on the cam and start tapping (gently at first, the progressively harder) with the hammer.

What I'm suggesting is that your helper will apply the pressure to get the piston to go down, and you (tapping on the cam) might send a 'shock wave' down the con-rod to the piston to get the brake shoe to free up.

Hi Herr - appreciate the response. That is correct, I can't pump the handle at all. I am going to try this later today and will get back with what comes of it. If we get the brake shoe to free up, will that help with the reclining dilemma as well? The small shaft going from the bottom of the handle over towards the base of the chair is all in place, but the handle won't move to push the small shaft, thus not opening the clamp mechanism that holds the reclining rod in place.

I'll get back later today with the outcome....my father is coming over this afternoon to assist. Again, appreciate you sharing your knoweldge.

Herr - No luck with the shock wave method. I felt like we were using ample force on both the arm and the cam chaft but nothing budged.

I've siphened out most all the oil which means I can tilt the base on it's side to get to the bottom. On the bottom are four bolts. If I remove these, will I be any closer to fixing this issue or is it best to leave these intact?

In regards to the handle not pivoting (thus not allowing the recline feature to work) what can I try to fix this issue? Besides spraying WD40 and applying a good amount of elbow grease to the pivot joint, it won't budge. Is there a way to remove the handle from the main shaft?

Thanks.

The four bolts on the bottom hold the outer cylinder to the base, really won't help with your issues. Most barber chairs are built from the bottom-- up... the base is set on the floor, the outer cylinder is placed on the base, the green cover is put over the cylinder... etc. You need to work from the top down.

One thing you may try, is another type of rust penetrating spray... PB Blaster is supposed to be great stuff, really eats through rust... although I've never used it personally, I've read great reviews from others who have.

If you still need to take apart your handle pivot, those two tapered pins can be driven out (from the 'front' of your chair). There's not much of a taper to them, and I've replaced missing ones with a 3/8" (?) bolt/nut... doesn't look quite as elegant, but it worked. It's been awhile since I worked on a chair, but I think that was the size... get whatever fits if you bugger up the taper pins that are in there.

As I was writing this, a thought came to me regarding your brake shoe... I've never had to go to quite this extreme, but...

If you could find a way to heat the outer cylinder, without ruining the green cover, you may be able to free up the brake shoe... I have no idea how you'd get a torch between the cover and the cylinder though. (Unfortunately, I don't think you can remove the cover without removing the inner cylinder, and you can't remove the inner cylinder without removing the piston and you can't remove the piston with the brake shoe stuck...)

If anything else comes to me during the day, I'll post it here... I'm almost out of ideas at this point... sorry.

Adam, I feel your pain. Went through this over the summer with my Paidar chair.

Once you drained the hydraulic fluid (oil) the hydraulics won't work. I had fluid all over the place trying to figure this out. Herr is correct that the chair is built from the bottom up. Removing those four bolts won't help with the hydraulics. Trust me I already made that mistake

The 2 pins on the pump handle pivot are what hold it to the pipe that extends into the hydraulic chamber. One of the pins came out with a punch and a hammer with some hard banging. However the second pin did not come out simply for me.

I used WD40, PB, and even applied a propane torch to it and it would not budge for me. My last resort was drilling it out. I went through several carbide drill bits before the mission was accomplished. In the end I didn't see anything different about the first and second pin so I don't know why the second one was so difficult to remove.

Sorry the focus is really off.

The disassembled pump handle.

The brake that Herr mentions, I believe is a steel piece a few inches long inside the hydraulic chamber.

I hope this helps.

~ Mike

Thanks Herr and Michael. I will give these suggestions a shot and reply back once I have something to report and share. I am sure more questions will come up as I get more into the restore. I appreciate the help and pictures!

hello, i have a question on the brake wedge. when i disassebled the two sections of the cylinder. the wedge fell out im not sure which orientation it go in. you have it shown in your picture. any help would be great. thanks

andykrancz@gmail.com

I recently purchased a 1920-1940's Koken barber chair and cannot determine how to recline the chair. It has a solid one-piece handle that only moves forward and backward (short back and forth strokes to pump it up, all the way forward to lower the chair, and all the way back to apply the break). The handle is not designed to tilt or rotate. Before I try and force it, I want to make sure that I am doing it correctly, with the handle in the correct position. I already applied oil to the necessary parts and they do not appear to be rusted together.

I was unable to attach a photo. I think it is because I am a "guest" (haven't received email confirmation yet).

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

I have identical chair n problem......did u figure it out ? Are patent drawings available ?

Suggestions are welcome !! Thanks Bill 231 649 1154 cel

Koken changed their name the company name is Takara Belmont

CR4 Admin - phone number removed

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I have a antique koken barber chair. i need to know how the cover that covers up the lift as the chair moves up and down attaches to the lift. photos will help. email me at william.armstrong55@gmail.com

There are usually four small screws that go through the sleeve into the cylinder. Pump the chair up as high as possible and look under the seat base, around the cylinder. There should be a 'machined' area where the sleeve will fit tightly on. Looking down from the top of the chair, the screws would be located at 12-3-6-9 o clock positions - the screws are approximately 1/4" long. There are four corresponding holes in the top edge of the sleeve.. you may have to 'rotate' the sleeve around to get all the holes to line up.

Take it to a salon and spa supplier for rebuilding the pump I work at one of this places we rebuild them for $55.00 a pop or simply buy a replacement pump which in my opinion is a better option you can buy a good quality pump for under 200.00.

That's a fine lookin' restoration... working in the business for over 25 years, I can't recall seeing but one other chair so 'complete'... and that one was in a gentleman's collection of antiques... your grandfather should be proud!

Thanks Herr. I really enjoyed this project. My wife had her doubts. Actually, I think she thought I was out of my mind. Women seem to perceive these kind of undertakings differently than men. Funny thing though........she has now claimed the chair as her "reading chair".

To be fair, I was a little worried about getting the pump handle mechanism working properly. You know where the "stop bolt" goes through the crossover shaft and secures the inner shaft, inner tubing and crossover shaft casting together? That all has to line up somehow. I noticed an undercut section about a 1.5" long on the 1/2" diameter inner shaft had an old dimple mark from where the stop bolt was originally tightened. I put a dab of white paint on it, lined it up with the threaded holes in the tubing and crossover shaft casting, positioned the handle appropriately and hoped for the best. Got it all together and the pump handle moved forward and back and rotated 90 degrees perfectly. Only issue was that the inner 1/2" diameter shaft end did not touch the recliner brake assembly large setscrew. Somehow it lost 5/16" in length. There's probably a way to use the undercut area on this shaft to get the 5/16" back. Rather than mess with success and take it apart again, I just put a longer setscrew in the brake spring release assembly. Your comment on having the setscrew just touch the end of the shaft is what saved the day for me. Thanks again.

I have said many times over the years to my wife.... if it's worth doing, it's worth doing right..........if you start something, finish it completely. If I could not get this chair to recline, I'd never hear the end of it from her for the rest of my life. I feel like I dodged a real bullet on this one. My record remains in tack with my wife. Say what you're going to do, do what you say and move on to the next challenge.

This isn't much.. But take it to a regular hydraulic shop & let them take a look at it...Those guys can fix anything that holds oil...

The Chops...

I have a Paidar Barber chair from the 50s,,it works fine but when it is up,it sometimes will pop and drop just a little,,Does it need oil?? I checked it while the chair was down it had 4" of oil,,Is this enough?? what kind,,and how much oil?? Thanks Kent

The oil level should be approx. 1" - 2" below the shaft that runs across the top of the pump (the shaft that rocks back and forth when you work the pump handle)... DON'T overfill the chair as these are basically glorified "buckets" -- they're open at the top and if you put too much oil in, it will leak out the orifice where the shaft goes into the pump.

30w, non-detergent motor oil is best... probably the 'cheap stuff ' at yer local auto parts store...

You said you have " 4" of oil "... how did you measure? 4" down from the bottom of the shaft? 4" up from the bottom of the pump? The "pop and sink" sounds like you may have pumped some air into the thing when raising it all the way... which would be normal... the air would 'leak' around the cylinder and the chair would 'pop' as it dropped ever so slightly.

I measured it with the chair all the way down,,I just stuck a rod into the oil,,and there was about 4" there,,the pop/sink does not happen all the time,,just every now and then.Should I think about putting a seal in while I have it torn apart? are there any diagrams of how these chairs are put together? Thanks