The Electric Car Dream

Dear friend,

I am not technical person but i try to give idea for electric car. I think the rotter of Motor is used as rail on ground and pass the DC current and the other part of Motor coil used as Car engine. So we can drive the Car on road by elecrtic current. At present it is rough idea. But nothing impossible. Only the interest is reqired.

B.R. Patel -- Mr. Agassi's program as described in the link Bob (rlindey) provided is interesting. And your post has me thinking along the lines you suggested; that is, combining it with a non-contact system in at least the first class highways that will transmit electric power to the moving vehicle. In this manner the frequency of battery exchanges during long distance high speed (which uses more power) operation would be reduced while the exchangeable batteries would be most used in cities and secondary rural roadways.

Linear motor configuration of common AC and brushless DC motor technologies are suggested here. As we know the ability of power to be transferred across the air gap in an electric motor enables the designer to cover high voltage conductors with insulation. This is useful in the highway application for obvious safety reasons.

We have the example of Maglev trains, which by their nature require an air gap across which power is transmitted in order to make their linear motors work. One description I read said that this was on the order of 10mm. When 10 years ago people in China got serious about building such a system the idea of extending it to automobiles on highways was a bit absurd for a number of reasons.

One had to do with maintaining that gap within reasonable tolerances given the roughness of highway surfaces and limitations of vehicle suspension control especially at high speeds. There were other pretty obvious reasons that I needn't go into. Bottom line, we weren't ready back then.

This is now. We reasonably question whether we need to travel at such high speeds in our private vehicles given the cost of energy and our ability to use our personal electronic devices for more activities while traveling. Note that a guide way in the highway offers simple means for automatic vehicle control that free the driver to do other tasks. We are just a few years away from these systems being mainstream even without expensive power strips in the highways.

Ten years ago active vehicle suspensions were the dream of a few. Today they are showing up in high-end production cars. The software and hardware technology that makes this possible is directly applicable to controlling the ride height of a linear motor element under a car if the vehicle dynamics are fully controllable and speed at which motions occur are not too fast. So we don't need the maglev technology that lets the trains go 400 km/hr floating on a more or less frictionless magnetic field. We may well be able to work with pneumatic tires at 100 km/hr.

There are plenty of other technical issues I haven't mentioned. And I am very limited in the essential knowledge of electric motors, especially linear configurations that would be needed to make this happen. So there may be technical barriers I don't know of.

Still I believe that it is the synergy of both cultural and technological developments that may help turn Mr. Agassi's project into something very real. This will be interesting to watch.

Ed Weldon

Dear Sir,

Thanks for creative comments

In this system we mounted four rails on the surface of road, and passing the DC power from over head AC power lines. The sensor will recover the required electricity [DC] from nearest applicable rail line. The sensor auto maintain gap between rail and power receiver, so we can drive the car as we want. If We drive the car in middle of the road, the sensor getting power from particular nearest rail. If we drive left side the sensor will geting power from nearest applicable rail. So no problems to drive Car. and I think no need to changing of battery. It is a idea only. I am not a electric engineer. It is not a work of single man. I request who are having money they can develop this project.

B. R. PATEL,

This is new? Its not even a hybrid! Whatcha gonna do when you are stalled on the side of the mohave? Or halfway to Toronto?

There are a lot of better answers "out there". There are two kinds of driving... "in city" and "between cities". Electric cars are supposedly better in the city, however drawbacks include gridlock traffic, memory effect in batteries, cold which affects the batteries, lack of ways to heat or cool your car efficiently, and serious competition from public transit. Oh, and cost of replacement batteries every 4 years or so. Thats why this has not been done before. Duuuh. A hybrid IS the answer, however it costs half again as much, rusts out just as quickly, and it crumples just like any other car when you hit a deer. And the resultant damage is much more expensive to repair. You can avoid this expense by keeping your car parked.

An all electric car for between cities? Get real. I couldn't get from Ottawa to Montreal without coughing out. Not to mention freezing to death. A heater would just require me to pull over sooner. I note that this guy was in California. Maybe that makes a difference. Take a bus or a train, and keep your car parked.

The answer of course, is to keep your car parked, use public transit, use a van to go shopping, or get it delivered, and roll your car onto a flatbed and take the rail to the neighbouring city. (There are variations on this theme and moving vehicles from city to city is a business which is just waiting to be created.) (You don't have to do that though...think how much the planet will love you if you left your car parked, took a taxi to the train, and took public transit at the other end? It IS about the planet right? ) All these things which are rather more easily achievable than boosting the fragile electrical grid in order to charge batteries, and having millions of batteries lying around ready to swap out like lap top batteries. I mean, if there is a more inefficient use of energy than charging vehicle batteries, I cannot think of it! Here we have a grid which is browning out every summer from overuse, and want to plug in a million cars overnight? When will the transformers get a chance to cool off?

Lordy! Now that business about the more miles, the more rebates? What the heck is THAT all about? Sounds like the "pigeon" scam up here in Kitchener. (Google that... it is iluminating how ponzi schemes work) Sounds too good to be true because, duuuh...it IS too good to be true.

Electric cars. Sheesh! Very limited application. Oh, did I mention the answer is to "Keep Your Car Parked"?

What would it take to keep your car parked? Free public transit paid for by an extra couple of dollars per gallon on the gasoline? Governments can DO that you know. More easily than they can build another nuclear plant to pay for electric cars.

I googled the stats on efficency for the electric grid.... 7 per cent line loss to the distruibution station, 3 percent transformer loss IN the distribution station, 6.5 per cent line loss from the distribution station to the substation, another 3 percent loss in the substation, a slightly higher loss due to lower voltage between the substation and the pole transformer, offset by the shorter run, averages out to 5 percent, a further 3 percent loss from the pole transformer to your home, and a whopping 90 percent of what is left fails to get used because batteries at their most efficient can only absorb and re-gurgitate 10 per cent of what you feed them. The motors are pretty good, operationg at around 98 percent, a bit less under stop and go conditions, however there are transmission losses.

Crikey, even a stanley steamer would do better than that!

The lengths some people will go to avoid leaving their precious cars parked. sheesh. I'll bet this guy is in the business of selling batteries.

Yusef1--

You're right about a lot of what you say. I don't think Mr. Agassi's ideas will play real well in large spread out countries like the USA and Canada. Just too much infrastructure would be needed to get it started.

We have our own problems with mass transit. Works reasonably well in the dense urban corridors of USA and I suppose, Canada. Try your ideas on the folks out in the western provinces. Higher gasoline taxes, something I've advocated for a long time, don't play well in relatively rural areas. Out here in California mass rail transit is very popular with the people who use it because they are getting a deeply discounted ride supported by tax payers. The BART system is packed during commute hours; and it still runs in the "red" after 40 years. But this is getting a bit OT.

Back to the battery swapping idea. Like so many other ideas that have some good aspects I believe this one will find a niche to settle into. But one good thing that could come out of it would be some world wide standardization on high current electrical connectors for batteries so we could put the 19th century battery connection system we use today behind us. The only real change,and that took 50 years, was GM's side connector batteries. They still require a tool to attach. Ironically a 5/16 wrench that has almost no other use on American fasteners and is seldom found in the average tool kit. (Yeah, I know; an 8mm wrench works also).

Ed Weldon

I've driven an electric car for 13 years. I use it as a secondary car, in the town. It's a two-person one with a fairly large luggage compartment. The engine is a 7.5 kW DC one, the highest speed is about 40 mph and the range is about 50 miles. The driving costs are about one tenth of the costs of my primary (Seat Cordoba 1.6) car.

Tomorrow I will be at my home system and I will attach photos of that car.

You make a good case. There is no doubt that your numbers make the electric very attractive. I personally would prefer something a bit, um, larger, like a Dodge Caravan, or Ford Winstar...something with a crumple zone... however the numbers would be comparable I think, when compared to their i.c.e. equivalents.

Do you really only use 1.82 per 100 km of electricity? Remarkable. The cost of gasoine in Canada is about double the cost of the crude oil (http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/analysis_publications/primer_on_gasoline_prices/html/petbro.html)

And I understand the price of gasoline in Hungary is rather higher...due to heavier taxes. So when they get around to taxing your electricity, (and you know they WILL! grin!) the cost of electrical fuel will rise from 1/8th to about 1/4, still pretty darned good. Just an observation.

The price of batteries seems about right, however do you not pay anything to have them recycled? In Canada, the more expensive fork lift batteries are often picked up, and then re-built for resale but the more standard deep discharge batteries such as you use have an environmental fee attached to them.

Your maintenance fees..I ran a battery shop for two years, and the techs had to bring me the batteries (aircraft batteries, fork lift batteries, automotive batteries, diesel generator set batteries, and so forth) every couple of weeks to have them balanced, checked, titrated (if appropirate) and load tested. I regard this as important maintanance, essential for long life. Do you pay for this service or do you do it your self?

Anyway, I realized just now that I am sounding awfully negative. My questions, I assure you, are perfectly straightforward. Electric has been tried before around here, and it has failed for so many reasons. I keep hoping that some of those reasons would be addressed and fixed.

I just picked up a generator set which would fit neatly in the back for under 400 dollars. I would not go anywhere in an electric car in Canada without such a spare! Not really a "hybrid", because of course, you would not run it while moving. Even right here in Ottawa, the daily commute often exceeds 80 km and there are always slowdowns. It is the winter here in Canada which puts paid to so many good ideas, including electric autos, I expect a little kerosene heater would fix this problem. When lead acid batteries are fully discharged, they freeze solid here.

In the summer months, the air conditioners being run all over the place put a heavy load on the electrical grid. It would not be able to handle a lot of cars. Increasing the size of the electrical grid would be a pre requisite to getting many more electric cars on the road.

My car uses standard truck batteries with a built-in automatic charger which also does the battery balancing. The charger uses off-peak electricity which will always remain less expensive than the uncontrolled one. In addition, I do the maintenance of the electric control- and power stages (not a bug deal) and the battery maintenance myself. I only have to pay for the maintenance of the classical automotive/mechanical parts.

Nothing new under the sun.

The first cars were electric cars, until the ICE was sufficiently stable to be used in a mobile device.

My opinion is that after all it will go into this direction, sooner or later as one day in future we will run out of petrol.

Charging the car's batteries with a small wind turbine on the roof is a good option, a controller will have to garantee the minimal charge by the morning so that you can commute.

A secondary turbine can be put in the trunk so that you can charge the car in cas it is standing outside on a parking lot. (as concluded in another thread: the best place to put the windmill for a wind power driven car is the .... trunk)

The already developed flexible solar cells, solar cells with 97% efficiency, solar cells that charge on very low light levels (i.e.moonlight) these will charge the vehicle most days to supplement the overnight charge. Supplemental charging may also take place at parking meters, the meter would recognize the transponder on your windshield already used on the toll highways.

Wireless power transfer would help to make this easier.

Standardizing on a swappable battery size / configuration / voltage and connectors for all vehicles is politically possible at this early time before every company goes in a different direction. It doesn't stifle competition, any more then the rules for a contest do. It creates a level playing field. Then any manufacturers battery can be used in any manufacturers car. Now that is competition. It would ensure safety in the battery, allow for national / international travel equivalent to what is now possible with a gasoline engine car, trucks may require multiple swappable batterys.

Logic and politicians don't fail us now...for the greater good.

What would you propose to use as a "standard" battery. The battery for my Diahatsu will not give me enough power to get to the next battery exchange station in my wife's soccer van.

Those morons that make automobiles can not standardize on a bolt pattern for the wheels. Ford alone uses 4,5,7,8, and 10 lug nuts in the US alone. And at that there are multiples of the 4, and 5 varieties.

The US has used nothing but 12 volt batteries since 1956. How many different sizes of batteries are sold by each manufacturer? And don't think about using a "Ford designed" battery in a GM, or Chrysler. Are the rest of the world's car manufacturers any better? No.

Medium and heavy duty trucks have standardized on "group 31" batteries. A light gasoline engined truck may use only 1. A heavy duty diesel with a 14L engine may use 4, or more.

Design a small battery that will work in an electric motorcycle. Then use that design in multiples as vehicle demands require.

For my 2 cents worth, unless the designer of the project gets a standard set early, and controls the marketing or leasing of the batteries, it can not work.

The cost of petroleum fuel is probably the biggest driver for electric car use/development. But at some point soon--very soon, like 10 years ago--it will not be desirable for use as a combustion fuel, even if free. The climate change phenomena is on the verge of runaway, and there is increasing evidence that it is too late to stop it and now it's a matter of just how bad it will end up being...

There sure seem to be a few people here that think the idea of creating an electrical auto industry is a silly idea. I guess I was hoping for a bit more optimism on the subject. I look at this project in a way I look at the space program. A lot of people thought the space program was a waste of time, money and effort. When you look at the development and growth that came out of that program one realizes that it was huge. I look at this project in a similar way. Yes there are big stumbling blocks. Will the development of this be smooth, I doubt it. Can the end result be a workable solution to ease the dependence on petroleum that we created for ourselves, I hope so. As with all things this probably will not work in every area and every climate, especially at the onset. Once the project get underway, however, I am confident that there will be great improvements in power distribution, battery power retention and rechargability, as well car design that will make this work. If nothing else the potential for this to change attitudes of the populous is immense.

Even though I may wear rose colored glasses at times I think this is a project worth pursuing.

Bob

The antipathy against electric cars is fed by the fear that the feeling of freedom which is coupled to the traditional ICE might get lost.

For the future we will have to split commuting from traveling: commuting is approx 50 to 100 km / day, I bet 80% of the commuters stay well below 100km/day. This is actually no issue for the electric car. but as soon as we want to have an action range of more than 250km shit hits the fan. The battery becomes an important weight issue then and charging requires power and time.

But some nice idea's passed by.

Technically possible, economically questionable & politically impossible (until oil runs out).

Tell that to Qqberci (post #15). Especially the part about economically questionable.

Electric cars already have a niche and that will probably grow. There are many different applications for motor vehicles. Electric cars will fit some better than others. And this will change most likely as influenced by a lot of factors. Relative energy costs are one. Environmental considerations are another. Sometimes irrational political forces are a third. Technological advances are a fourth. And so on.

Be careful how you bet. And watch the battery technologies.

Ed Weldon

An electric car is my dream! Converting my car to electric for using around town is the most effective "green" thing I can do. I used to love driving and did a lot of it for fun, exploration, and entertainment but now I drive the absolute minimum necessary. I want to enjoy driving again without the depressing fact that I am supporting the most powerful, profitable companies on this planet every time I turn the key.

There are lots of choices for the future and all should examined thoroughly, but the only option I see right now is replacing my internal combustion engine (ICE) and gas tank with an electric motor, motor controller and battery pack. There are many places to plug it in.

Electric cars have a few disadvantages, the most notable being range, next would have to be cost for me, but they have many advantages. Imagine more power, never having to change the oil, minimal maintenance of a motor with one moving part (excluding bearings), lower fuel cost and zero emissions.

The greatest advantage of the electric vehicle (EV) is in its potential for advancement. I would love to see automobile technology progress at rates similar to other technologies. Automobile manufacturers have been running the ICE show for a century now and have failed to produce any significant improvements in the efficiency of the ICE. You might argue they have, but I'm not impressed. To be honest, I am disgusted by the fact that some models get worse mileage than they did 22 years ago.

The EV has also made little progress, until recently, but this is mainly because there are so few of them, they are still largely unheard of, and most people don't realize they are an excellent alternative for a lot of daily driving. I had to add "until recently" because the EV progress I've seen the in last few years is truly phenomenal. Today, powerful electric motors are being designed and built specifically for vehicles, rather than trying to make motors designed for some other application work in a car or truck. Programmable motor controllers are more efficient, help protect motors and battery packs, and can be customized to suite the car and driver. New battery technologies are capable of faster charging and denser energy storage. The introduction of a highly efficient DC to 3 Phase AC inverter/controller allows the option of dropping the awesome, proven 3 phase AC motor under the hood. EVs are finally demonstrating their impressive torque on race tracks, drag strips, and public roads.

The future for EVs is promising. Lithium titanate battery technology could offer refueling times closer to pumping gas. As more motors are made specifically for cars and trucks the prices should come down. Motor controllers will be able to use the phenomenal advances in computer technology. While EVs are not in their infancy they still have a lot of room for improvement. There will alway be a place in this world for the geriatric ICE, but hopefully it won't be on the street next to the school's playground.

You hit several nails on the head, and I think putting it into perspective is right "on" topic. I just want to touch on a few points you made.

I'm impressed with EVs today. Historically they have been portrayed as weak. I like power, speed and the thrill of performance. I admit, ecologically, it is bad, but seeing an EV outrun a stock ICE on the drag strip is deeply satisfying to me.

There are about ten taxis here. They do give the inebriated a better option when they leave a bar, but it's not the best option for general transportation here.

We get our power from two hydros and one of the largest (polluting) coal plants in the world. Ever heard the folk song "Paradise" by John Prine? It's a song of the town the steam plant obliterated. I have witnessed the effects of strip mining coal. Truly a horrible thing. In my mind, it is the equivalent of brutally raping the landscape and should be banned. Deep mining does not destroy as many square miles of forest, natural streams and beautiful sandstone cliffs sculptured by time. I am also familiar with the endless stream of smoke the coal-fired boilers wrap around our planet. OTOH I saw the skies over Denver and have to admit it looked worse.

It has been my understanding that EVs produce about half of the pollution of the ICE. Here we differ, so I'm wondering what research has been done on that. Seems like a lot of math.

I do believe another advantage of the EV is that it will facilitate more diversity in energy production. As an example, my vehicle will only run on gasoline, a Flex-fuel will run on gas or ethanol, an EV could potentially run on natural gas, oil, coal, solar, wind, hydroelectric, nuclear, hydrogen, and geothermal at the same time. I believe there is some measure of security in a diversified electric system. Unless of course, the oil companies own all of them!

Leaving the car in the driveway, mass transit, carpooling, walking, and biking are all excellent options and should be applied whenever possible. I agree that commuters, especially one individual in an otherwise empty SUV, do have a tremendous effect on our environment and our dependence on domestic and foreign oil. I include domestic because some US oil companies actually sell their oil here.

When I see the lot full of new cars at the dealerships I realistically and accurately view them as "future junk". As flimsy and cheaply as they are made they do present quite a disposal problem.

I also have the impression that lead acid batteries are very recyclable. I don't know about the potential environmental impact and recyclability (new word?) of lithium based batteries. I quickly scanned Chem and Mat Science and didn't find anything, also ask an environmental engineer that question last night and he didn't know but will check.

Also agree we are running out of oil and electricity rates will likely go up with increased demand.

Lastly, the "plug in" was missing on early hybrids, you could only use gas to charge your batteries! I wonder how they could have forgotten that plug?

Off topic? I think that it is a Good Answer. Perspective is what is needed here. Just a thought: instead of changing just the fuel, change the engine as well. The current reciprocating piston engine is over one hundred years old. Time to retire it.

Regards Dragon