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Mass Producing Solar Arrays

03/29/2009 7:32 PM

I have this idea, and while I have not done an exhaustive search, I think it might be somewhat novel: Solar Arrays might be more affordable, acceptable and adaptable if they got off the roof and onto a pole. The pole could be set in a concrete base, so all installations are the same, maximizing economy of scale and minmizing installation steps. The array could rotate and tilt for maximum output per square meter, and might fold in half for more compast storage and reduced windage during stowage, when commanded to come down into a case as wind speed and gustiness threatened it. Since it is not on the roof, any location and any building along any axis with unshaded exposure could employ it. The computerized controls should be almost 100% automatic, including lowering it, except for the safety basics like permission to raise itself. The poles could vary in height and wall thickness to clear local obstacles, but share a common diameter. A well grounded pole with lightning points above the machinery would also be a lightning protection many homes lack. The raising attachments would run over pulleys at the top and give a mount ring, once raised into a top 'home' locking position, a stable orientation as a base to rotate the array into alignment with the sun. The weight of the array rectangle would balance on the ring (except when folded when the weight would rest against a second ring). The case would wrap around the pole, at one end for a folded array or at one side of center for non-folding, and could have a top that opens to a flare, so as to guide the folded array into the case even with a cross wind pushing it out of alignment. The main purpose of the case is wind protection when stowed, but the top should close to keep debris out. The output of the array would not be so high that special wiring is needed (<1440 watts = 80% loading of a 15 A 120 V circuit); it should plug into a standard outlet. Anyone should be able to install it if they can read, dig a hole, mix cement, read a level, tighten bolts and plug in a cord. All moving parts of the final installation would be high enough to clear people and animals nearby, or inside the case. Stored power or gravity could ensure it can stow itself if the input power failed, especially at night, although it need not be stowed at night ordinarily. A modular design would allow several large parts to be interchanged or exchanged for replacement or improvements. As the idea got traction and a greater variety of sizes are needed, Government and Industry agreements could ensure that there is a standard, graduated set of sizes for system parts, so there is level competition for like systems, replacement parts and upgrades.

Of course, even with all these mass production and easy installation aspects, the payback break even may still be a bit long. As cells get cheaper and more efficient, the idea would get better. Careful design to use cheap and light materials would help the equation. Despite recent fluctuations, energy will get more expensive, and we may learn ways and create devices to use less. I think the sentiment is out there. People individually and society would have a safety net against wastful, expensive and pollutiing power sources and transmission losses.

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#1

Re: Mass production Solar Array.

03/29/2009 8:39 PM

... or I could just lay them on my roof.

I guess I'm missing the "cheaper, better" aspect of this.

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#4
In reply to #1

Re: Mass production Solar Array.

03/30/2009 3:00 PM

The array is relatively small, and thus cheaper, so more homes can affort to add it. Installers can get equipment that speeds and thus cheapens the install, and use it at every location.

Alas, we can't all have south facing rear roofs with no shade trees! This was not on my agenda when I had this house built. It's a bit late to relocate the house and street so I get southern exposure in the back, and that leaves the peolple across the street in the lurch, in solar terms.

Maybe we should make solar fake clay tiles for roofs, so you cannot tell, or are not bothered, that the whole root is a solar array?

The number of houses you can reach goes up, and the larger number of installations drives the price down.

Since it is two axis dynamically aligned, it can get higher output per square meter of array.

I have trouble talking my wife into changes to our property that she feels make the view from the street or patio ugly. I might tuck this on the right side of my house just short of the back yard, which is a mostly Northern side where the roof faces mostly West. The height would have to be pretty noticable, as for morning sun it must clear the corner of the roof, so it would be visible when active, proably making for too much effect on the curb appeal. And to think we thought TV antennas were ugly! Maybe I have to put it way back in the back yard. The thing is, there are many options.

I syspect you cannot just lay arrays on your roof, you have to attach them and seal the attachments, and then remove them to maintain the roof. I am concerned about the potential is for snow, ice and ice dam sorts of complications up North (like NJ). In the long run, a simple, free standing system can avoid such complications, and can be serviced by a few, simple, well know and independent actions.

Think about the outboard motor, compared to the inboards that preceeded it. You could just put the engine in the bilge, but changing the oil is a pain. I am amazed at the size they have grown to. There are special facilities to mount and dismount them. If your huge hunks of power get sick, and you have the bucks, you can easily drop in a new set.

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#5
In reply to #4

Re: Mass production Solar Array.

03/30/2009 3:16 PM

I think I would still prefer 3x the panels at 1/3 the output to having a complicated gizmo stuck up on a pole. We have the pole mounted types here at NASA - at the child care center, of all places, along with wind generators.

I'm not saying there's no application, but it's not a better solution to anyone who has a roof with good sun.

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#6
In reply to #4

Re: Mass production Solar Array.

03/30/2009 4:36 PM

You are considering creating a field of poles in your back yard with large rectangular plates on top to in essence cover your yard? You can not just install something like that very high above the ground as it could adversely effect the neighbor light. So you now have a field of poles across your yard with rectagular cells on top at a height of 6 to 10 feet above the yard. You end up roofing the back yard. BTW this is exactly what the sloar cell farms look like with cells all across a field covering nearly everything. Even if your cells have to be angled slightly on the roof to a slight south face and be installed on each side of the roof for morning and afternoon exposure, it is still unused surface that does not impact other resources.

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#2

Re: Mass production Solar Array.

03/29/2009 9:51 PM

It might also be easier to read if you break your post up into smaller paragraphs.

What you propose is not new. We have one at the factory where the solar panels are on a pole. We're looking to solar power for our factory's external lighting. We're still testing the feasibility at the moment so we haven't installed a lot of them.\

regards,

Vulcan

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#3

Re: Mass Producing Solar Arrays

03/30/2009 2:56 PM

Here is the thing to consider, Solar array on roofs represent a use of previously unused space. Poles in concrete are a use of open spaces, and would have a substantially greater environmental impact. The roof is there no matter what so the enviromental impacts already exist fromt he roof, and you have no significant additional adverse impacts due to installing the solar arrays. The arrays on a roof, recover some of the energy that would otherwise be wasted into the roof shingles or reflected. arrays over open ground recover the energy that would other wise strike plants that use that energy for photosynthesis, reduce the heat striking the ground, foundations would impact ground cover, etc..

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#8
In reply to #3

Re: Mass Producing Solar Arrays

03/31/2009 7:36 AM

Well, every solution for one problem generally introduces another. This gets solar power onto almost every home lot, even if the roof is unsuitable for some reason, and with a potentially very standard unit that has simple intallation, killing a lot of retail-end costs. Since retail markup and installation are often the majority of any item's cost, it is an important end. True, there will be another square meter of concrete on the lot, and several square meters of new shadow moving across the yard, but it is not a bad tradeoff. The impact (and generation) is distributed, too.

I did not say put up two, four, or fourty, although of course some people may. There are better solutions for more intense and expensive installations. I want a "base level option" that virtually every household can buy and install, unless their roof is more inviting.

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#9
In reply to #8

Re: Mass Producing Solar Arrays

03/31/2009 9:02 AM

I don't see the need to automate with electronic controllers my panels have withstood 60 mph no problem on a freon based tracking frame that gets most of the usable light the mech involved is ridiculous in cost and ruins the reliability of what is already existing tech. don't mean to be negative but other options are better.

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#10
In reply to #9

Re: Mass Producing Solar Arrays

03/31/2009 11:21 AM

This is not Pollyanna land, some negative is all good fun!

When I Googled "freon based tracking frame solar array" the first hit was a system bragging that it did not use freon, so tastes vary. I figured a couple stepper motors, a small plate between two cells, a comparing amp and a microprocessor was pretty simple. Judging wind is just some strain gauges and comparing amps on other microprocessor ports. The smarts is in the anticipation by trending, so the array can pre-aim, move and stow in anticipation of repetitive or changing conditions. Since I have the microprocessor for stow, I make it work for a living with aim.

Do the freon systems work at all temperatures, cloud conditions and light levels? Maybe a freon system could go up the pole? I guess It lags a bit, but I guess you could fix that, to some extent, by kentucky windage (fixed forward bias).

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#7

Re: Mass Producing Solar Arrays

03/31/2009 1:15 AM

Many thanks for your idea , really I am thinking in this solution ,and i need to ask about the max power output and how to handle sun decay , I will try to introduce this idea to big company to make mass production , so if you please try to communicate with me to reach to the best benifets from this idea

Regards

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#11

Re: Mass Producing Solar Arrays

03/31/2009 4:15 PM

Remember when satellite dishes were 6-9 feet in diameter? There's a lot of that hardware still around waiting to be re-adapted by do-it-yourself types. I know of at least 3 setups in my rural neighborhood that I could get for free if I would simply cart them away. But I don't need them. When I'm ready for solar I have a nice sloping southern exposure.

They might also make nice windmill bases. But I live too far below the ridge top to get any decent wind exposure (which has its own set of advantages)

Ed Weldon

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#12
In reply to #11

Re: Mass Producing Solar Arrays

03/31/2009 8:04 PM

On follow-on idea is that the pole could be expandable in sections, for ease of transport and erection and for variable height, say 8-20 feet each, and for simpler, more common inventory and supply chain. One section could hook to the next with a slide in and turn engagement, secured with three flush head locking bolts to keep it from moving. The base section and the top section would be special, for concrete attachment with case and top of lift station with pulleys, respectively.

Internet solar array prices seem to run $4-5 a watt, for whatever level of sun they use to calibrate that. Installation might double that cost, so for $10/watt installed, $.10/KWHr. electricity (not that I have looked recently, probably low), and say 10 watt hours an average day (very optimistic, I am sure), says ten days to make a penny per watt bought, 10K days to break even at zero interest, or less than 30 years if nothing breaks. I could be off a lot here, but the biggest real problem seems still to be the cell cost. I suppose as you move South and devied really cheap, bulk installations, you can trim that a lot. Does anyone have any more optimistic numbers that hold water?

(The web site reformatter's coder never took typing in high school, to know there are two spaces after a period, or "full stop", I suspect to differentiate them from abbreviaitons. I keep putting them in, it keeps taking them out! MSWord gives you the option. Schooling varies over distance and has changed over time.)

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#13

Re: Mass Producing Solar Arrays

03/31/2009 11:01 PM

I've put many arrays up on poles. They're not my first choice for array placement. There was a company in Australia which produced a thin film PV using 1/10th the silicon and produced 10 times the power per area. They used micro-grooving on silicon which effectively increased the effective area and the panel was active on both sides; allowing a West/East orientation instead of a South face. They had a little 10 watt panel available which they stopped producing and they were supposed have large panels available a couple of years ago but, nada....

Current commerical PV's are about 20% efficient. This is where the work needs to be done.

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#14
In reply to #13

Re: Mass Producing Solar Arrays

04/01/2009 10:09 PM

Actually, the waste products from the manufacture of the cells themselves are a wee bit of a problem.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/08/AR2008030802595.html

http://environmentalchemistry.com/yogi/chemicals/cn/Silicon%A0tetrachloride.html

http://msds.chem.ox.ac.uk/SI/silicon_tetrachloride.html

Stochiometrically, 4 units of this stuff are produced for every one unit of polycrystalline silicon.

Nimbys of the world are figuring this out.

http://www.etoxics.org/site/PageServer

Best regards.

milo " i like the technology, but resonsibly manufactured."

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#15
In reply to #14

Re: Mass Producing Solar Arrays

04/01/2009 11:04 PM

Although a sad story, the blatant dumping of toxic waste from PV (rather polysilicon) production seems to be an exception not a rule. I don't know the details in the recycling of silicon tetrachloride, but the article stated there is an effective, widely used method.

I won't argue that polysilicon PV panels are the answer to the dwindling, cheap oil supplies, but it's a lot better than the processes that'll be used for stripping oil out of tar sands and oil shale. (By the way most of the worlds silicon is used in microprocessors.)

The thin film panels I mentioned use 1/10th the silicon, but there is a long way to go to efficiently harvest the sun's potential.

The western world's main problem is rampant, over-consumption.

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#16
In reply to #15

Re: Mass Producing Solar Arrays

04/01/2009 11:14 PM

No argument from me, LHM, but, the proponents of all these new technologies have that "AWW gee" lack of critical thought about end of life waste and in process waste, and will be the first to scream when "unintended unanticipated" consequences arise.

We have state attorney generals suing paint companies for products from two centuries ago. CAn you imagine what the liability might be for the physical or chemical hazards from these as the laws get tougher and the state of knowledge improves?

With todays lowest global cost business model, I'm not at all so certain that the blatant dumping of these chemicals in China as was documented is as exceptional as we would all hope.

I'd love to have PV. but What is sweet for me may not be such an environmental blessing where its made.

I'm no luddite.

Just adding a fact to a discussion.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

milo

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#17
In reply to #16

Re: Mass Producing Solar Arrays

04/02/2009 12:35 AM

Milo - The Washington Post article is instructive and it may raise some cause for caution if not outright alarm. But it loses a bit of credibility with the statement: "With the prices of oil and coal soaring, policymakers around the world are looking at massive solar farms to heat water and generate electricity."

This statement in the 8th paragraph of the first page has no further qualifiers. What it says to me is that "solar farms" under consideration by government entities are based on polysilicon technology. I'm not sure that is the case. Certainly not here in the USA as far as I can see. Seems to me that the writers of the article do not know the difference between PV technology and mirror-concentrator arrays that are being started in the southwestern USA. So much for their statements being representative of anything more than what they actually reported on. Certainly a poor situation. But this does not merit a wholesale indictment of China's solar cell industry.

With respect to the Silicon Valley Toxics Coalition report (4th of your links): I'm close to an engineer here in Silicon Valley who works for a solar manufacturing company. He has read the report and at least in his organization(where the report got wide circulation) there appears not to be any real alarm about what it says. I should hasten to note that there is intense research and development going on in the direction of various thin film PV technologies that do not use massive polysilicon materials. Such technologies, while they may yet demonstrate their own environmental problems, they do not produce massive amounts of silicon tetrachloride.

Here in California environmental effects of any technology, most especially new ones, are a very big deal. Local consciousness of these factors among technologists runs very high as it also does in the offices of the venture capitalists. "AWW gee lack of critical thought" is not to common, at least around here in the world of alternative energy development.

Ed Weldon

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#18
In reply to #17

Re: Mass Producing Solar Arrays

04/05/2009 9:51 PM

Sounds smart to me! I dont going argue with you on this one. All looks great definetetly. But, where is my 'Stimulus Packages' and 'BailOuts Deals' ? Never Mind that's what I hear around the town latetly I don't Know. But not for real, Why they doesn't make use of 'Lithium Bromide' and an 'Ammonia' loop system with 'CarbonRocks' applying such amounts of massive heat production to it in order to build-up a great output out of that? Imagine that for a minute!

Also with the 'WindTurbines' we migth as well make out like a 'Rotary Heat/Power Generator' at same time by gears modification which will provide neccessary mechanical leverage to put in motion some kind of 'Power/Heat Unit' that work on compression concept for 'Energy Transfer' in demand reservoir. Hey, Who Know's? Something have to give down the road eventually. You have the Technology!

Crank that Puppy-Up,

MC

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#19
In reply to #17

Re: Mass Producing Solar Arrays

04/06/2009 10:31 AM

Ed, Your thoughtful and critical thinking is showing!

I did not expect that to be an issue here in US, we have things screwed down pretty tight over industry, especially in peoples republic of CALIFORNIA.

I just wanted to add some sense of "no free lunch" regarding PV.

There are always causes and effects, and there are always unanticipated consequences.

Appreciate our conversation.

milo

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#20
In reply to #19

Re: Mass Producing Solar Arrays

04/06/2009 4:52 PM

Actually, California CEQA law is a less cumbersome process than Federal NEPA processes, which many other states use as a guideline. Most remaining states use CEQA, as well as some European countries, as a guideline for their environmental impact process. It just happens to be incidental that most new laws that have any major impacts and occur outside of federal governance are begun in California. Some are tax cut laws like Prop 13, some are environmental laws like CEQA. As far as indiustrial hazardous waste goes, general California is not ahead of any of the other western States, except Texas. There are many blatant industry exemptions through out California hazardous waste laws for agriculture and oil for example, that other western States do not allow.

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#21
In reply to #20

Re: Mass Producing Solar Arrays

04/10/2009 4:18 AM

In California hazardous wastes go where money flows...and where hazardous wastes flow no money goes.

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#22
In reply to #21

Re: Mass Producing Solar Arrays

04/10/2009 12:10 PM

Isn't it amazing that chemicals so complex, active and potent as to be toxic are worthless?

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#23
In reply to #21

Re: Mass Producing Solar Arrays

04/10/2009 1:59 PM

Actually that is just the opposite of the reality. Improvements in Hazardous Waste regulations tend to be directed against those industries with the least money and influence. However, this is also consistent of the Federal government. Big Oil influences hazardous waste regulation for special exemption even in federal law. It just happens that California has by far the largest agricultural economy in the nation, so it has a huge financial influence on State regulations, creating special exemptions for agriculture. However, on the plus side, because there are so many wealthy and diverse agricultural interests, there is not any one particular specific blatant exemption, like you might see for Tyson in Arkansas, or such.

As far as the Hazardous Wastes themselves. Almost no where does hazardous waste get shipped to wealthy areas. Here in California they get shipped way out in the country from counties so wealthy they influence national elections and policies to some counties that are so poor they rank below Mississippi for poverty. Kettleman Hills is in Kings County, and you would be surprised how much waste gets shipped north from LA to numerous disposal facilities in Kern County and Kings County.

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