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Vista and the uncertainty principle.

05/02/2009 12:51 AM

Within the last year I've acquired two machines running Windows Vista. One 32 bit desktop with a 160 gig hard drive and one 64-bit laptop with a 320 gig hard drive. The desktop is my wife's computer and I'm normally not on it . I had occasion to use it and noticed that it was running exceptionally slow, a check on PC pitstop showed that the drive transfer rate had fallen from 54 MB/s to about 30 MB a second, and the drive was heavily fragmented. The computer had been set to automatically defrag weekly.

Here's where the plot thickens, I could not get the file fragmentation below about 35% after a day of work, And trying several defragmentation utilities, and had assumed the drive was in the process of failing, and was about to purchase a new hard drive.

That is when I noticed that my two week old laptop hard drive was fragmented and its data transfer rates have fallen significantly. Attempts to defrag the laptop were only marginally more successful than they had been on the desktop.

The final solution for the desktop was that I deactivated file paging, and enabled the write cache. I also used the built in Vista hard disk manager to partition the drive into a C & D partitions without reloading. I managed to get my file fragmentation down to about 18% and the data transfer rates back up to about 45 MB per second when I finished I re-enable file paging and figured that that was as good as it was going to get without being reloaded.

One bit of additional information is that one of the defragmentation programs I use had a graphical spherical representation of the file storage, the file storage pattern resembled an open choke shotgun pattern at 50 yards.

I went ahead and reloaded the laptop from the backup partition , and also partitioned that hard drive into a C & D partitions. On both computers I try and load as many programs as possible on the D partition .

I also had enabled daily defragmentation on the desktop. Now as to what I am confused about. The day after I had stopped working on the desktop it's file fragmentation droped to about 4% the drive transfer rate returned to about 54 MB per second and the graphical image appeared normal.

Both machines seem to require defragmenting at least weekly and sometimes more often to maintain performance and generally run 10 to 15% fragmentation versus my XP machine that gets several times more use, whose performance remains relatively constant , the raid array runs about 125 MB per second and I defrag after large file changes or when I feel like it, it's typical file fragmentation is in the 2% range.

My question does anybody have any ideas, I have the problem at least partially under control, but it is annoying to have to constantly defrag both machines, the automatic defragmentation can't be relied on as the machines may be shut off at the scheduled defragumentation time.

As my lead line implied these machines seem to be operating more in line with quantum mechanics, a carefully applied scientific method has led me to the conclusion that Vista's filing system is based on the uncertainty principle, and confirmed that God does indeed play dice.

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#1

Re: Vista and the uncertainty principle.

05/02/2009 10:03 AM

I hate Vista. I'm not a computer geek, so what I suggest may sound dumb to someone who is. I've had problems with mine untill I got compatible versions of Norton Internet Security, and Norton Systemworks 2009. I then disabled all Windows security settings, firewall, etc.. Now I get updates automaticly, alerts when I need to do something like remove a tracking cookie. Larger threats are fixed automaticly. De-frag seems to be automatic as well, but I can check all of it with a couple clicks. The laptop boots up faster too.

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: Vista and the uncertainty principle.

05/02/2009 1:45 PM

Hello Tippecanoe:

Nothing sounds dumb, I am at a loss or dead and appreciate any suggestion. I'm about to install Norton Internet security on the machines, I had McAfee that my ISPs provide it on both machines and removed it,I had thought that that might have been the source of the problem , and that did not seem to be the problem.

Both McAfee and Norton have a defragmentation setting however they use the built-in vista hard drive manager, so the computers aren't going to defrag any better then they do with the built-in manager. Which is sufficient , they are performing adequately now,however they do require frequent defragmentation.

Besides that once I got used to Vista it actually has some good features, I like the Windows media it seems to perform quite well.

Any rate think you for response hopefully someone has a better fix than I have come up with.

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#3

Re: Vista and the uncertainty principle.

05/03/2009 12:09 AM

I have a blog (barnyardpc.blogspot.com), where I talk about computer issues for people. I am in the computer repair and cleaning business now; and you will find that Auslogics Defrag program works great. I use both XP and Vista, and it is very fast on both. It is a free program that is both efficient and thorough. Please check out my blog for the address.

On my desktop (XP), Auslogics usually runs in around 3 minutes; and my laptop (Vista) 3-5 minutes. You can defrag a complete drive or select a file, as you choose. Keep in mind that I keep my systems in good order and clean regularly............you will find that the cleaner programs that I have listed, all run very quick and all are free. The key to keeping your system fast and reliable are:

1-Consistent cleaning

2-Max your memory (with quality memory, I might add). Hard drives store information sequentially, and memory stores it randomly ( hence the name RAM--random access memory). When you give a hard drive a command, it must search in sequence, while memory is able to directly access the information. This is why it is important to have "more"...).

3-Keep your hard drive to resource allocated ratio to around 5 to 1; in other words, if you have a 250 Gb hard drive, then the closer you stay to using 20-25% of the capacity, then the faster you will run.

oldgolfer

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: Vista and the uncertainty principle.

05/03/2009 12:42 AM

I have heard that about only using a small fraction of the HD capacity before. What is the reason behind it?

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#17
In reply to #3

Re: Vista and the uncertainty principle.

05/04/2009 10:26 AM

5 to 1 is rediculous. Since linux on my laptop I've been introduced to MANY other file systems that have significantly better performance than ntfs. MS needs to give a few more options during the setup for formatting than the archaic FAT and the nearly-archaic NTFS. Neither of these can journal, perform live defragging (not something that needs to be run or managed by the operating system)...there's always too many hoops to jump through to keep things going.

I haven't put vista on any of my machines. The fact that MS has the first release candidate for Windows 7 already available for download makes me thing of how soon windows 2000 came after Windows ME.

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#18
In reply to #17

Re: Vista and the uncertainty principle.

05/04/2009 8:40 PM

That ratio is indubitably effective but I expect more use from my 500GB 3G drive ya think.

Linux isn't the answer either.

I like Vista okay maybe because I'm not on the MS treadmill

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#5

Re: Vista and the uncertainty principle.

05/03/2009 1:24 AM

Hey YWROADRUNNER,

You will rue the day you sacrifice speed to security, seriously it is low latency programs you need as oldgolfer inferred. I too help people with computer security and cleanup confused machines.

Partitioning helps regulate slack space, oldgolfer mentioned sequential data storage albeit that is true but some is temporary storage only this is the way some fragmentation (slack space) occurs.

You could have say 10GB in the system partition D:\ and then partition again assigning two additional of 60GB and 80GB for specific tasks. This regulates the proliferation for lack of better term of the empty shells left by temporary files causing slack space.

I recommend weekly system maintenance on XP and Vista machines for security and operational reasoning.

There's a bit more to a system maintenance procedure though the long version normally take less time to complete.

1. Have installed a select few utilities on the desktop

2. Discipline yourself to a routine of system maintenance at least once a week

3. Physically disconnect from Internet and back up your system

4. Turn off page file, delete all but most recent restore point; in XP turn-off system restore, run disk cleanup in all files

5. Reboot

6. Defrag, windows defrag is slow and clunky. The utility I use allows several levels and events the user can define the scope of. Smart Defrag is a good free tool

7. Reboot, assign page file size to at least equal to memory size. Reboot

How much $$ is it worth to you . Keep in mind those whom perform these type services have extensive levels of utility programing. If this maintenance regimen doesn't work for you seek help or send me a PM.

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#8
In reply to #5

Re: Vista and the uncertainty principle.

05/03/2009 1:34 PM

Hello bwire:

I'm doing a little catch up as I've been doing maintenance on the motorcycle all weekend, you and old golfer have offered some excellent tips, particularly the page file settings, in fact had just increase the size on my XP machine and took manual control of the file size, the XP machine has four gigs of memory on board which is all it can use with a 32-bit operating system.

I've been doing a lot of video and audio processing , particularly audio as I am getting ready to take a trip to see my son graduate from the police academy, and unfortunately when I bought my new truck two years ago I Assumed that the CD player would also be capable of playing MP3s.

And we know what assume stands for. So now I am converting large quantities of MP3s to waves so I can listen to them in my truck. Any rate back on the subject while converting music last week my memory load increased to almost 2.8 gig and of course the machine slowed down, I haven't gone through a full scale tests yet however since locking my file paging to four gig my memory load has dropped.

At any rate thank you for the suggestions and I'll try a some of the defrag programs mentioned. One of the programs I use ultimate defragger would not work with a 64 bit version of Vista I have on the laptop so hopefully one of the suggested will.

I have no fragmentation problems with the XP machine, and considering that I literally transferred gigs of information from one partition to the other processing it is a miracle. So far the key on the Vista machines has been to make sure they are defraged weekly.

PS: as to voice typing programs I forgot to mention that dragon did not play well with Internet explorer 8, apparently the added security features interfered or audited the voice typing when I was entering items to search in the Google bar.

Also of anyone's interested I did not like Internet Explorer eight it seemed to be replete with bloatware add-ons from Microsoft.

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#11
In reply to #8

Re: Vista and the uncertainty principle.

05/03/2009 7:28 PM

I didn't play well with IE8 either.

If doing media (A/V) work ups you should go through the maintenance procedure I suggested after each set is completed; capture through mix down and mastering then do it. Media rendering is a huge creator of fragmentation.

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#6

Re: Vista and the uncertainty principle.

05/03/2009 4:07 AM

1) Never have data on your C: Disk, this reduces the effect of data being moved about and keeps the C: running faster, longer.

2) Defrag is still important, but should not be needed quite so often. I also use the jkDefrag and it seems to be very reliable.

3) Use a Registry tool to clean your registry, I use "Registry Fast" which is free and finds more wrong entries than any other I have used. It needs to run several times (the first time maybe 10 times) till entries that can be deleted are reduced to less than 40 (for XP at least). Run this before doing a disk Defrag. Run it also once a week or so.....

Note

Many people forget that the registry collects a lot of entries that are simply not needed (every time the PC is switched on) and it needs also "Defragging" so to say (not completely accurate terminology!) to allow the PC to run at full speed......

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#9
In reply to #6

Re: Vista and the uncertainty principle.

05/03/2009 2:18 PM

Hello Andy:

Also let me say hello to an old-school comrod, I can't tell you how much needling I get for clinging to my old-school ways. Though obviously I am limited on preloaded machines as to where the program load, any time I set up a machine I partition the hard drive much as you have suggested.

In the case of this machine HAL2009 (my custom-built machines tend to be a little psychotic, in this case the Q6600 quad core is overclock by .5 GHz) I have two 320 gig hard drives set up on a striped raid array with three partitions.

My standard procedure is to put my music and videos and backup my documents on the last partition, all programs that will load on D partitioned are loaded there unless I make a mistake, and I try and keep the primary partition as much as possible free for the operating system to prevent fragmentation. However several people have told me I'm doing it the old way.

There are several advantages not the least of which is this machine is not only a tool but also a toy to keep me up with the current technologies, my beta tester if you will. Everything gets tried on this machine before it goes anyplace else, my latest endeavor was trying to hack the licenses I lost when the computer crashed last time, for the MP3sI bought at Wal-Mart online store.

I now know to backup my licenses,as an added bonus to losing my licenses . I picked up some spyware while looking for the hack that managed to get past both spy bot search and destroy and ad aware, and played havoc with the computer, I managed to get it off and take it out of the registry, however I was already having problems with Explorer, so I may end up reloading,.

It's really nice to have all your data stored on a partition other than the primary partition of the operating system, you can zero that partition and get rid of any traces of viruses or spyware and not have to reload all of your data.

By the way defrag seems to be appropriate when applied to the registry. The program I use uniblue has a registry defrag operation, though I regularly scanned my registry for problems, in tell l acquired this program I was unaware of the need to defrag the registry, so excellent point.

I of course will try your freeware why pay for something when you don't have to, however I would like to say Uniblue works very well. Since I am combining replys I would like to thank you and I guess that posted below you both for making excellent suggestions.

A lot of people knock Vista, some of it just getting used to software engineers changing things for no reason, but the file storage is a real detriment, besides that it has some good features, if Windows 7 can get rid of the bad ones and keep the good ones it'll be a winner.

Any rate thank you and I better get back to working on the motorcycle, if I don't get the parts off the dryer before my wife gets home from church, I will be the one catching Hell.

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#12
In reply to #9

Re: Vista and the uncertainty principle.

05/04/2009 1:26 AM

Canibalizing the dryer to fix the bike eh?

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#10
In reply to #6

Re: Vista and the uncertainty principle.

05/03/2009 7:23 PM

Andy remember you use XP and this concerns Vista and frequent defrags are helpful.

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#14
In reply to #10

Re: Vista and the uncertainty principle.

05/04/2009 2:54 AM

They are with XP......any Windows.....I have used most and all work faster if data is not on the C: disk and regular defragging.

Since Wini.ini is no more and there is now a registry, "defragging" the registry is also a good move......

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#15
In reply to #14

Re: Vista and the uncertainty principle.

05/04/2009 3:41 AM

Absolutely

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#13
In reply to #6

Re: Vista and the uncertainty principle.

05/04/2009 1:33 AM

I don't know, really I just don't know what to say at times or don't say it right I don't know.

I defrag My Vista machine every three days, because in three days system restore uses 25GB to 35GB of space and I dump it with disk clean up along with all the temp files etc..

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#16
In reply to #13

Re: Vista and the uncertainty principle.

05/04/2009 8:43 AM

25 to 35 GB egad, I'll have to look at the restorers on the two Vista machines, I have turned the restore off on the XP machine, was much like an early electronic rev limiter I had on the Road Runner, it worked fine until you needed it, 9000 rpm Hemi, very expensive. Every time I try to use the restore I would get the window saying the computer could not be restored.

What the heck are you thinking saying anything about cannibalizing the dryer, my wife reads this, you'll give away my secrets. Came close to taking the dryer timing circuits out, almost destroyed the motorcycles speedometer while recalibrating it, $252.12 is what a friend has just informed me that my dicey recalibration could have cost, that little spring in there is real delicateand for the life of me I could not figure out how to play with the magnet,a hollow half round magnet,I still can't figure what the magnetic field looks like,so much for changing the field strength with my electro-magnet.

PS.Obviously the timer off the dryer wouldn't have worked,but I figured once the dryer stopped working I could tell her the part to fix the dryer cost $252and $.12.

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#19
In reply to #16

Re: Vista and the uncertainty principle.

05/04/2009 9:27 PM

What've you got some kind Offy variant?

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#20
In reply to #19

Re: Vista and the uncertainty principle.

05/04/2009 11:31 PM

ZRX 1200 Kawasaki. Fuel tank $985, faring $500, warm all over feeling included at no additional charge.

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#21
In reply to #20

Re: Vista and the uncertainty principle.

05/05/2009 12:51 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWNj4HOyah8 looks fine and fast.

Not bad we called Kawasaki 500 & 750 2strokes flexi-fliers, I never owned one but rode several, liked the 900.

Had Yamaha's and Honda's and Harley's, benelli's and a Hodaka. Preferred Craig Vetter's Rooster fairing on the big streeter's.

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#7

Re: Vista and the uncertainty principle.

05/03/2009 1:06 PM

I had nightmarish problems after I was careless enough to buy a new PC and laptop running Vista.

Part of the problem is that NTFS tends to shove bits of files into any odd corner (to save overall space) while FAT32 used larger cluster sizes to avoid fragmenting files but sacrificing drive space.

Best solutions I have found:

1. Use as little HD capacity as you can, as stated.

2. Max out the RAM- 4 GB for a 32 bit machine (will only use about 3, but you need two 1 GB sticks.) 8 GB for 64 bit home basic, 16 GB for 64 bit home premium, and as much as you can afford for ultimate/Business/Enterprise- as in 128 GB or more. Vista is designed to suck up all available memory- "why pay for memory you don't use?" - but then it goes hunting for more in virtual memory on the HD. That kills both PC speed and HD performance.

3. Get the fastest 4GB memory stick you can find and use it for ReadyBoost to reduce HD traffic for caching.

Good luck!

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#22
In reply to #7

Re: Vista and the uncertainty principle.

06/06/2009 3:46 PM

Also, you might all check out PageDefrag (first programmed by SysInternals, which was bought out by Microsoft).

This program does a quick defrag of the system files (which are normally held open and hence cannot be defragged while Windows is running) while Windows is booting.

With a properly defragged page file and registry hives, the machine should be more responsive.

A second program that I run is called UPHClean.exe (User Profile Hive Cleanup), also from Microsoft. This program ensures that the User Profile registry hive is fully unloaded during shutdown, to prevent Event Viewer error message related to this, and to prevent (in certain circumstances) User Profile registry hive corruption (which slows booting, because Windows has to compare the hive to a backup, and load the backup in case of hive corruption).

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#23
In reply to #7

Re: Vista and the uncertainty principle.

06/06/2009 4:02 PM

Part of the problem is that NTFS tends to shove bits of files into any odd corner (to save overall space) while FAT32 used larger cluster sizes to avoid fragmenting files but sacrificing drive space.

How many other words can be grouped together having an essentially similar definition? What used to be ain't no more

Allocate 15GB to the system partition and restrict NTFS.

Get the fastest 4GB memory stick you can find and use it for Ready-Boost to reduce HD traffic for caching.

Readyboost can not be effective when employed thus. How can you compare the speed of a 3.0GB/s or 6.0GB/s HD to USB transfer rates/bandwidth?

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