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Scuba Tanks and Air Pressure Equalization Temperature

05/19/2009 2:41 AM

I know from Joule experiment, when two receiver at different pressure are connected and isolated with a valve; when the valve is open, the higher pressure receiver will get cold due to expansion and the lower pressure receiver being filled will get hot, and no work is done cause the temp will balance each other.

My question is: Why when the lower pressure receiver being filled, is temperature increase, I understand that compressing air at constant volume will increase the temperature, but the air filling that low pressure receiver is at higher pressure, so it should expand as it enter and fill the lower pressure receiver and the same air will increase the pressure of that receiver and heat up, so shouldn't their temperature balance each other ? and only the higher pressure receiver get cold

Thanks,

Dan

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#1

Re: Air Pressure Equalization Temperature - Filling Scuba Tank, Why Temp Increase

05/19/2009 3:51 AM

Consider a hand-operated pump that is used to inflate a bicycle tyre:

  • Compressing the air that enters the tyre will cause the air temperature within the pump to rise, and the casing to run hot.

Consider a CO2 fire extinguisher:

  • Expanding the CO2 in the nozzle causes its temperature to drop, and the nozzle will run cold. In fact, in training individuals to use the things, the first consideration is "DON'T HOLD THE NOZZLE WHILE USING IT!", otherwise frostbite may result.

In the example in the original post, an expansion is taking place in the high pressure receiver, just like in the CO2 extinguisher nozzle, and a compression is taking place in the low-pressure receiver, just like in the bicycle pump. So one would expect the high pressure vessel to run colder and the low pressure vessel to run hotter immediately after the valve between the two is opened. Over time, of course, the temperature of both vessels will approach ambient, at a rate determined by the shape and size of the vessels, the degree of insulation, the air velocity past them and a host of other factors.

Does that help explain things better?

Welcome to thermodynamics!

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: Air Pressure Equalization Temperature - Filling Scuba Tank, Why Temp Increase

05/19/2009 6:27 AM

I have been studying thermodynamics and couldn't find the answer in the ideal piston compressing/expansion gas law. The piston compressing the gas and heating up under Cv is ok, but if we use a receiver at ambient temp and x pressure and open a connecting valve to another receiver at lower pressure; there will be an expansion in the lower pressure receiver as air is rushed in and at the same time a compression raising the receiver pressure ... I think, and at the beginning of expansion the delta p is big but as pressure equalize the expansion is less but compression is greater thus generating more heat ... I think

make sense ?

Dan

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: Air Pressure Equalization Temperature - Filling Scuba Tank, Why Temp Increase

05/19/2009 6:59 AM

<...if we use a receiver at ambient temp and x pressure and open a connecting valve to another receiver at lower pressure; there will be an expansion in the lower pressure receiver as air is rushed in and at the same time a compression raising the receiver pressure ...>

This is incorrect. There is actually an expansion in the higher pressure vessel and a compression in the lower pressure one.

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: Air Pressure Equalization Temperature - Filling Scuba Tank, Why Temp Increase

05/19/2009 8:20 AM

Your right, the high pressure receiver will decrease in pressure and cool down.

When you open a valve from a receiver to Atm; the air comes out cooler to the point of freezing the valve, because there is a difference of pressure between the receiver and the Atm pressure.

Take the assumption that the same process happens when you fill up a reservoir with another one; at the beginning the lower pressure reservoir is at Atm pressure, the difference of press. is high so the air expand in the lower reservoir but as the pressure build up the difference is less, assuming the filling is long enough that pressure doesn't build up faster than the exchange of temperature.

what do you think?

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#5
In reply to #4

Re: Air Pressure Equalization Temperature - Filling Scuba Tank, Why Temp Increase

05/19/2009 10:08 AM

<...lower pressure reservoir is at Atm pressure, the difference of press. is high so the air expand in the lower reservoir...>

As stated earlier, this concept is incorrect: the air in the "lower reservoir" is being compressed when it is being filled, so its temperature will rise, just like in the bicycle pump illustration above. In the case of filling a scuba cylinder at lower pressure from a higher pressure reservoir, it is the fluid in the higher pressure reservoir that is doing all the work, instead of the arm pushing the bicycle pump in the analogy.

That is why scuba equipment can only be filled at a certain rate; were there no upper fill rate restriction then the cylinders would become excessively hot to handle during the filling process, notwithstanding any temperature limitations on materials-of-construction, and would still need time to cool down once filling is completed.

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#6
In reply to #5

Re: Air Pressure Equalization Temperature - Filling Scuba Tank, Why Temp Increase

05/19/2009 10:16 PM

The answer is the "Joule Thompson Effect" as per another thread answer:

The observed cooling occurs as a result of adiabatic expansion of the compressed air. The air, as it escapes from the valve, does work on the atmosphere by pushing it away against atmospheric pressure to make room for the expanded air. The amount of work done, delta W, equals P(atm) * delta V (the extra volume that the expanded air takes). We assume delta Q = 0 (adiabatic process), and so this work is done at the expense of internal energy of the expanding air which is why it cools down, expansion occurs because the 'empty space' on the boundary is more likely to get occupied by one of the more densely occuring from the high pressure reservoir molecules first.

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: Air Pressure Equalization Temperature - Filling Scuba Tank, Why Temp Increase

05/20/2009 3:37 AM

<...expansion occurs because the 'empty space' on the boundary is more likely to get occupied by one of the more densely occuring from the high pressure reservoir molecules first...>

This statement makes no sense.

In the case of two vessels connected via a valve, expansion in the higher pressure vessel occurs because the gas is leaving it via the valve.

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