Harley Davidson - Equal Point Setting

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First of all I am not a Harley owner, nor an I an expert on Harleys.

If I were doing this, I would just use a feeler gauge. Another option would be to use a dwell meter. On automotive dual point ignitions, we would put a piece of cardboard between one set of points, and adjust the dwell on the other set. Then switch the cardboard and set the other set.

There may be an easy way that is unique to HDs, but we will need to hear that from someone else. Good luck.

bob c: That can be used to check gap. The point being is that one set of points is used but the rotating cam has two lobes, one wide, one narrow, 180* apart. Narrow lobe fires front cyl on time, rear cyl on waste or exh stroke, 180* later wide lobe fires rear cyl on time, front cyl on waste. A simple system for firing 2 cyl's with one set of points, fire them both at same time, one on time f, one on waste r, 180* later, fire them both again, 1 on waste f, one on time r. The question here is.......

What if the gap (18/20)is not the same on both lobes? This throws timing off on 1 cyl in comparison to the other (which causes ratty sound like a VW rather than a Harley at lower rpms) How do you correct it so both gaps are the same and what tools do you use? pencil n paper only help if you can't subtract lets say 20 from 25. After correct gap is obtained on both lobes, engine timing needs to be again set to specs.

The only tool at your disposal is to grind/polish the cam so they ARE equal height, without altering the timing/duration. Good luck with that.

Then you are really in deep poo

not if you're obsessive compulsive, have time on your hands, and want to improve on the quality that rolled off the line of that bowling ball factory in Milwaukee, which would be about the era of your points machine.

Replying to Comment by Jammit

See above.................Manual?

Is this a hypothetical question or are you having an actual problem? They sell aftermarket electronic ignitions that have "Duel Fire" capabilities (duel fire = each spark plug fires indipendently... "Single Fire" = both spark plugs fire at the same time) as well as independent timing adjustability for each cylinder. If this is a hypothetical question and all associated engine parts are in tolerance you could start by purchasing or making a piston stop that screws into the spark plug hole and stops the piston on the compression stroke at the ignition point (this distance may vary depending on engine setup - i.e. aftermarket pistons or stroked flywheels) First SLOWLY rotate the engine BY HAND until front cylinder is starting the compression stroke (you can tell this by looking at the front push rods - both valves should be closed, no push rod movement). Insert the piston stop into the front cylinder spark plug hole and snug it up, SLOWLY rotate the engine BY HAND until you feel the piston hit the piston stop. Check the points gap on the large lobe per service manual, now remove the piston stop and repeat the previous steps for the rear cylinder and check the gap measurement on the small lobe. Also what is this "ratty" noise you speak of, could it be detonation or pinging do to improper over all timing? Are the timing cam and or points warn? You may also want to check the weight springs to make sure they are not broken or deformed and that the weights move freely and that the timing cam is properly bolted to the cam end. Its hard to diagnose a problem without all the details.

TOOLS:

Piston Stop - Feeler Gages - Assorted Wrenches / Sockets and Time.

Replying to Comment by Guest:

Thanks for joining us and your thoughts are in the area.....The ratty sound comes from not having the same timing on each cyl due to gap difference. Hd actually fires at about 45 degrees from one another hence that HD sound that is so sweet. If you had a v8 with each side firing at a different timing point it would sound way off kilter, same as HD. Again, this was just for fun and learning a little "trick" of the trade.....just in case of no manual in the middle of no where without a pencil.

Thanks guys for riding along............Now, how do you torque harley head bolts? and what tools? and why do old harleys leak? (not the rider)

In addition to my previous statement if you are running a distributor type ignition the gear on the end of the distributor or the worm gear that it mates to could be warn. Also the shim for the end of the distributor drive gear could be warn (the one between the gear and the cam cover) causing the gear to move right and left in the case and randomly retarding and advancing your timing while you ride.

OK guys, this is a discussion for learning.

Tools required...HAMMER, drift punch, feeler guage.

The cam opener is bolted to the end of the cam by a small dia, soft steel bolt.

Check gap on each lobe. .ex..18 on narrow...30 on wide, now what? each lobe gap must be .018/.020 for proper timing of front and rear cylinder.

You adjust it with a hammer!......the whole opener cam & advance mech. is held in place by this bolt. Place the punch or drift or some small dia extention that will reach in to catch edge of cam bolt, going to the narrow gap side and tap the drift with hammer to increase the gap and decrease the gap on .030 side by bending the bolt (softly and slightly) It is made of soft material so that if it breaks it is easily removed from end of main cam Turning the engine over, again checking gap and continue adjustment til both gaps are equal@ .018/.020 Then reset the timing using narrow lobe/front cyl. The rear cyl will then be automatically timed correct. Timing is set with full advance, another story, another time. If someone tells you a hammer is one of the more important tools to work on Harleys, it's not a put down. 12" crescent wrench, screwdriver, hammer and a cold beer...a harley tool kit for the oldies... This was just for fun so.....................screw the manual!

Early Harley Davidson=

2 Cylinders. 2 lobes. 1 set of points. 1 ignition coil. 1 spark plug per cylinder.

1941 American La France=

12 cylinders. 6 lobes on each of 2 distributors. 2 sets of points per distributer. 4 ignition coils. 2 spark plugs per cylinder.

Each distributer is able to adjust for timing individually. One set of points is able to be advanced relative to the other set of points in each distributer. Point gap is individually adjustable on all 4 sets of points. Each plug wire needed to be cut to length, and fed through a steel tube with small holes in it for each plug. Then attach the other plug wire end.

Just another day in paradise.

I get the feeling that a mechanic had to smoke to be able to tune a HD.

Cellophane from cigarette pack for timing.

Match book cover for setting the points.

And a loose matchbook cover for the spark plug gap.

IMHO, the best things that have come along for HDs are; silicone rubber, locktite, brake cleaner, platinum spark plugs,and electronic ignitions.

Replying to Comment by Jammit: Pencil to scratch your , paper to check gap if no feeler guage avail, eraser for wedge to keep a part from rattleing and if you don't figure it out, it won't start again anyway. Manual? rotsa ruck.

Back before the Japanese showed the world how to design, engineer and build motorcycles which could keep oil in their crankcases and be properly and accurately timed, it was not uncommon to have to fiddle with point gap to get the timing right on both cylinders, as opposed to just one. The typical home mechanic would just set the point gap to about the right value, time one cylinder, and leave it at that. Some shop mechanics would set the points at the average value in the range, and then set the other set a little tighter or wider to get the other cylinder to fire at the right time. Still others, the obsessive ones, would find the difference in gap required to get both cylinders correctly timed, and then set the points to the average of the two gaps and then retime. For many Harleys of the era, there was no point gap that was the same from cylinder to cylinder that would result in both cylinders being correctly timed.

The best tool to use for these shinanigans was the cellophane from a pack of cigarettes. The point gap can be set by eye, without the use of a feeler guage, if you've done it enough. The cellophane is used to detect point opening (when it just pulls out from between the points). (This assumes the points have been freshly filed.) No timing light needed. The timing was far more critical than dwell time, so a little difference in point gap was of no consequence.

If you went through enough of this silliness, you'd end up with an engine that ran poorly (as opposed to obscenely poorly -- the way most Harleys of the day ran) with specific power output of about half that of a real motorcycle. Spending a lot of time tuning a Harley is a lot like spending time tuning a lawn mower -- what's the point? It's always going to sound like a lawn mower or a farm tractor. Better to just start the thing up and be thankful that it runs.

Fortunately, today, we have options. Old men can choose between buying a Harley or buying Viagra, with the latter probably being a better, safer, and less expensive option for overcoming feelings of inadequacy.

Replying to Comment by Guest

The second most recognized logo in the world..............

check the growth of HD stock since went public...........just remember, an old Harley always, always, marks it's spot. And why have something if you can't work/play on it and a little always available hard body is better than a viagra and polishes your scooter as well.

Thanks all, remember...humor or marriage, take your pick or poison.

Replying to Comment by Jammit:

Manual?

I see by your replys you chose marriage.............see above

Contribution is SOOOOOOOOO, huh? didn't see a post by Butch, was he unhappy?

And all this time, if you knew in the first place, you could have contributed rather than trying to impress just how ambivilent you try to display yourself, yet you leap immediatly upon presented posts. This was to learn something that few know, you included, it seems, from your lack of intelligent input. Manual? find one when broke down in the middle of arizona, and if you did, it will not explain the process sufficiently if at all.

I guess one of the first things I learned as a Harley shop owner (14 yrs) is that your only bringing it to me to fix is because you "could have" but "don't have time to" do it yourself" or you tried to fix it by the manual and screwed it up so bad that it became the bike that, well, Your time is more valuable than the cost of repair so here it is, I think all the pieces are here (that you took off and don't know how it "reassembles"

(that means go back together) and didn't have the manual with you, but in the meantime, telling me how to "fix it". Thanks for joining us and contributing your total sum of usable knowlege on the subject. to say the least

Replying to Comment by Jammit:

WOW! If your so knowlegable, why did you not contribute?...oh of course, see thread topics and wave bye bye.

Replying to Comment by Jammit:

Tie shoes? I am in awe but, who did you ask, certainly not Butch?

CR4 is a moderated forum. Several comments from a user who is no longer a member have been deleted. Thanks for reporting these violations of site policy to us.

Replying to Comment by Moose:

Thank you for whatever you did to end the nonsense from such a negative person. All that effort could and should have been aimed as contribution, not the spiteful bites as was done. Thank you, Z