gaseous hydrogen as fuel

See previous threads on CR4 on the subject including the following (which for some reason I didn't get involved in).

http://cr4.globalspec.com/blogentry/6794/Where-Are-the-Hydrogen-Cars

Jack, Thank you for the reference.

You can but without engine modifications its horribly underpowered. Your vehicles internal combustion engine is set up to run on gasoline. Being hydrogen is different it needs different working conditions in order to be efficient.

Much higher compression and a different typically more aggressive camshaft profile are needed. I have been doing hydrogen power experiments with small engines for a few years now and have had favorable results with the power output once the engines compression was nearly doubled. But that tends to have other side effects from a gas engine not being built to handle that level of compression. Connecting rods and mechanically weaker parts give up rather quickly.

A possible alternative I have been working towards is simply taking a diesel engine and changing the injectors over to spark plugs with adapters and replacing the fuel injector pump with a distributor and then adding a vapor carburetor to the intake. Its still in the early stages but I feel I may have some very good results being the diesels already have the high compression and robust parts designed to handle that much compression.

With the right engine changes I believe it can be practical and efficient! However hydrogen storage is still in the development stages though. So the actual tanks tend to be typically very high pressure types that are thusly heavy and have a very limited storage capacity.

I understand that hydrogen can make some metals brittle. How do you deal with that problem?

I am not a metallurgist. I couldn't properly answer that if I wanted too. I know hydrogen is used in other parts of the world as vehicle fuel and and has been used successfully for decades now and it is documented and well proven that it does work well in internal combustion engines.

We have a local hydrogen fulling station about 8 miles from my house plus it can be purchased by anyone at a welding supply store too! Thats where mine comes from so don't lump me in with the HHO nutters! Mine comes from standard commercial high pressure bottles.

A K size hydrogen tank is about $65 as of lately and anyone can lease one through their local welding gas supply center. My local supplier is Praxair.

I recently picked up a set of large high pressure CNG tanks and as soon as I get them refitted with hydrogen valves and certified for hydrogen use I will legally be able to get them filled at the hydrogen station for far less!

If no one does the research nothing gets improved upon. If someone on America says something is impossible or not practical I never take their word for it until I prove it to myself!

When it comes to alternative fuels in general we are not the world leaders. We are the laughing stock and village idiots of the world. Just as other countries have information censorship to keep their citizens in the dark about freedom and higher qualities of life we have the oil industry and government its millions of blind followers that just think the garbage they say about alternative fuels and energy sources is true!

I am not a hydrogen expert or a environmentalist or anything like that. I am just a person with a natural curiosity as to how things work. I do all of my hydrogen research and experiments with my own money and equipment. I have no agenda or intentions toward getting money or funding for my work. Its just a hobby with some rather interesting and educational results!

I think what you are doing is great. I don't know what a HHO nutters is. I agree with your assessment of this country's backward attitude toward energy solutions. I'm thinking that if we can run vehicles by burning hydrogen, why bother with the very expensive fuel cell? The thing about hydrogen making metal brittle, I read in a CR4 statement earlier. It could be a part of a disinformation campaign. I don't know. I was asking you because you have practical knowledge with the work you are doing. Do you have any idea why hydrogen burning vehicles are not being used today? If you want to contact me directly instead of through the CR4 blog, I can be reached at thinkingman@sbcglobal.net. Thank you for your work.

An HHO nutter is one of those goofs that believes they can run their vehicle on hydrogen by generating it on the vehicle with the vehicles own engine power to drive the process in a closed loop.

They are the ones that get possibly good hydrogen threads booted off forums like this one. Thats one of my peeves about this site. The HHO nutters wont get the honest truth or information they need about there misguided attempts from a solid reputable sources simply because the solid reputable sources are to full of themselves or too paranoid to allow the exchange of information to ever begin!

I am rather surprised this thread has not been closed and locked by now! The term HHO and hydrogen have been used several times and that seems to be enough for some threads to get shut down here!

I am not a hydrogen expert by any means but simply someone with an educated and scientific mind that has an honest interest in finding out the truth about how it really works. And yes there is so much disinformation, misinformation, mythes, garbage and junk floating around about vehicles using hydrogen as an internal combustion fuel source its sick!

The united states despite our nations claims is not the world leader in alternative fuels research and development. We are in fact the laughing stock and village retards of alternative fuels usage and implementation.

Some governments hide the truth in order to keep their population from knowing about things that would give them the freedom and rights we take for granted . Our government and big business actively de nigh us the information or flat out give false or bad information about common alternative fuels that most developed nations have been using for decades and with great success!

I have used propane as a vehicle fuel for about 10 years now and around 100K miles in all types of driving conditions and I know it works well. However I still hear tons of mythes , false information, and general garbage about it to the point its sickening! I am still told by about 1 in 3 people that I meet that see my propane fueled vehicles that, I wasted my time and money because the first time I get on the throttle for any period I will burn up my valves. Or the first time my fuel tank runs low the propane system will get a lean burn and I will get destructive back firing or burn the valves and destroy my engine. Or that the propane is going to rot out all of my engine gaskets and I will wreck my engine from massive oil leakage! These are just a few of the more common negative comments I get about every week or so.

I have pulled trailers for about 35K of that 100K miles and many times with my foot into it for hours at a time on the interstates and have yet to burn up a valve or cause any engine damage! I have also ran out of propane and had lean burn conditions hundreds of times and not once did I ever get any backfiring or damage from it! And every vehicle I have used it on has not had any worse oil leakage than before I put the propane systems on them! Even after tens of thousands of miles of driving time!

What I have been hearing about hydrogen usage is the exact same garbage and disinformation that propane has but only with the name changed!

Everyone seems to know a guy that new a guy that new a guy that met someone that they think had that problem therefor its bad so don't bother attempting to do it! But yet when someone with actual hands on experience from real life long term use and has solid provable information and realistic numbers is standing right in front of them showing them his vehicle, and telling them the good and bad points, they don't believe him and don't want to hear what he has to say.

Sure I have wrecked a few $15 garage sale push mower engines while researching hydrogen gas usage but so what. At least I know now what not to do and what needs to be changed before setting up my vehicals for it!

The problem with hydrogen as fuel is not that we can not do a engine to burned. The actual engines are able to burn it and the cell will use it too. Actual internal combustion engines will even burn the hydrogen better than fuel cell. Converting hydrogen direct into electricity is less efficient than internal combustion. The problem on this is, the hydrogen should be produce from electricity. Producing hydrogen from electricity is the more efficient way to produce hydrogen. Producing electricity like we do in the present times do more harm than using gas in the engines. If we burn hydrogen in our car we are going to be doing more comtamination and dependency of foreign oil. That prescription is going to be worse tan the illness. We need to find new ways to produce hydrogen to really get a solution off the problem

We could just use those windmills, solar panels and other AE devices every one seems to hate so much because they don't run constantly to produce the fuel when they are working!

The nice thing about free renewable energy systems is the eficency does not matter so much as the cost of the conversion devices or processes that take that free energy and convert it to something we can use or store.

I am aware of the energy cost to generate hydrogen. My question maybe should have been prefaced with, assuming a cheap efficient source of hydrogen, why not just burn it in an ICE. In other words, if the fuel cell vehicle ever becomes commercial, there will need to be a distribution system. (Right now hydrogen will be generated off the existing Natural gas grid with reformer units at the fueling site). Once that system is in place, why should I buy a super expensive fuel cell vehicle instead of using an ICE running on hydrogen? Or, why not just run off natural gas?

Because big business and special interest groups don't want you too!

There is no big money or high profit in just converting whats already here now regardless of its practicality and workability.

If you don't make it overly complicated common people will figure it out and do it themselves. Big business cant make profits off people that don't need them!

As average Joe Nobody which would you chose? A $4000 conversion for your vehicle or a $60000 POS fuel cell hybrid clown car?

If your unaware of the $4000 conversion your stuck with the clown car! And that what big business wants!

Don't you think that if it were feasible or practical, someone would be doing it?

There's a bazillion threads here on the subject of Hydrogen power.

There's a state senator here in Arizona who believes that the earth is only 6,000 years old._{(Really dumb!)} Maybe she can help you.