Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from 9/11 at World Trade Center

And Apollo 13 never landed on the moon?

When it is explained how the conspirators were able to plant the explosives and get the cooperation of the people who hijacked the planes and put this all together, I'll bow at your feet.

Until then, don't walk too close to the edge of the earth, or you might fall o_ff.

So the fact that the iron oxide particles are red is surprising? in a building made up of tons of steel structural members?

Or the fact that there is aluminum dust in such a calamity? Given that the missile causing the conflagration was largely Aluminum?

In my reality matter is conserved; The aluminum and the iron oxide that resulted from the chemical mechanical transformation of the building, plane and artifacts within is not surprising as a dust residue to me. What does someone expect, the iron girder superstructure to transform into stainless? beam itself back to krypton?

By naming two species of constituent of dust that could be combined to make an incendiary does not guarantee that the precursors were there as an incendiary.

In the course of a productive and active life solving industrial problems, I have found the principle of OccamsRazor to be of more service than naming something to create a problem. You may now cite Einstein's "imagination is more important than knowledge," as your refutation, at which point we will then promptly all ignore your further posts. ( at least those of us who actually work in the scientific and engineering fields that is.)

Best regards.

milo " "critical" is the most important part of thinking"

milo

OK, I will tentatively make a few comments, given that the gist of where this is all going has fairly overwhelmingly (in my opinion) been proven to be a conspiracy that will in all likelihood join others such as the fake moon landing (in that some people will never believe no matter how much evidence and commonsense is employed).

Iron oxide (rust) and aluminium are common elements found in both the building and aviation industry. Heat + force + mass + fuel = chemical reaction. Add an overactive imagination and biased opinion from the very beginning and you get an OVERREACTION.

Additionally even if the American government WERE made up entirely of complete idiots (which it isn't no matter what anyone thinks), there many other ways to justify invading a country/start a war against terrorists/etc than to blow up large and important sections of ones own city, than to embark on an unnecessarily expensive, complicated, high risk project which has more holes in it than a (well very holey tent).

So much for a tentative comment.

Ok let the discussion begin. I will start off the obvious question first, where did the thermite come from?

Loaded on planes before impact?

Added to buildings sometime before impact?

Spread around area by men in black after impact?

The buildings were originally made of the material (by accident or long term conspiracy objective)?

Have I missed any?

Lets keep this discussion civil please.

OK, if we apply, " OccamsRazor" as suggested by Milo, we get:

1. The planes flew into the buildings.

2. The buildings fell down.

3. Materials from both were ejected and sampled at atleast four places.

milo

And WTC7 fell from....?

Hmmm... I was hoping for a rational discussion, as this seems to be the best place to have one... maybe I was wrong and I apologize. The paper was published by Department of Chemistry, University of Copenhagen, which as a peer review publication ought to be peer reviewed. Just because I posted it doesn't mean I endorse it, rather I was interested in those with a chemistry and material background to critique the actual paper and not the abstract which I posted. Did anyone link to it?

As for my personal opinion, I find it curious that WTC 7 fell without an impact from a plane. Also, that in the history of steel-framed high-rise buildings only three have collapsed... all on the same day. Granted it was the first for jetliner impacts, but not in the case WTC 7.

I almost posted anonymously for fear of being ostracized, but ultimately felt this was the best place to have an open, rational discussion on the matter... I hope I did not err.

"Did anyone link to it?" Yes.

I've used all the analytical tools cited in the paper. The results do not support the hysterical assertion that "the government" blew the buildings to hell.

Arizona had a state representative who swore that, "the feds did it".

"The results do not support the hysterical assertion that "the government" blew the buildings to hell."

I found no such assertion, hysterical or otherwise, in the paper. Really, my interest is in the science, not emotional load the subject carries. Is the approach in the paper flawed? How so?

Did you check these out?

Jeffrey Farrer

3S&J Scientific Co., Provo, UT, 84606, USA:

Google them, then tell me there's no agenda here.

I didn't bother with the rest.

1. Independent American News » Blog Archive » More Proof Thermite Was ... - 8:48pm2 Department of Physics and Astronomy, Brigham Young University, Provo, UT 84602, USA 3 S&J Scientific Co., Provo, UT, 84606, USA ...
   www.independentamerican.org/.../more-proof-thermite-was-use-on-the-towers-on-911/ - Cached - Similar -
2. Proof 9/11 was planned is in.Jul 13, 2009 ... 3 S&J Scientific Co., Provo, UT, 84606, USA 4 9/11 Working Group of Bloomington, Bloomington, IN 47401, USA 5 Logical Systems Consulting, ...
   www.energeticforum.com/.../4481-proof-9-11-planned.html - Cached - Similar -
3. Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World ...The scientific rigor of this effort by Harrit et al. is commended. .... Provo, UT 84602, USA S&J Scientific Co., Provo, UT, 84606, USA 9/11 Working ..... (3) shows three images for comparison of views of the same set of chips using ...
   www.scribd.com/.../Active-Thermitic-Material-Discovered-in-Dust-from-the-911-World-Trade-Center-Catastrophe - Cached - Similar -
4. Outside the BluePill Cave: A summary of 9/11 scepticismBradley R. Larsen, S&J Scientific Co., Provo, UT, 84606, USA. Related article: .... #3. Are there any related videos and documentaries? Yes, here are some: ...
   outsidethebluepillcave.blogspot.com/.../summary-of-911-scepticism.html - Cached - Similar -
5. Kasper Theories » 9/11 – An Internal JobJun 25, 2008 ... Provo, UT 84602, USA; S&J Scientific Co., Provo, UT, 84606, USA; 9/11 Working Group of Bloomington, Bloomington, IN 47401, USA ...

Just depends on your point of view, I guess.

Couldn't find any evidence that S&J "Scientific" is noted for anything else but the conspiracy theory.

A large portion of Utah is inhabited by people who have always thought they were being suppressed by outsiders.

You do know who settled Utah,and why, don't you?

_{Now I've done it!}

These are sites which deal with the conspiracy theory; none on the actual scientific merit of the paper. I'm not interested in the "conspiracy", just the paper. Remove WTC from the reading of the paper; is it valid as a scientific paper?

BTW your prejudice of Mormons doesn't make for good science.

"is it valid as a scientific paper" Not with the list of contributors cited, and their obvious bias.

I Googled the names of the contributors, not conspiracy theory.

Show me what else, "3 S&J Scientific Co" is noted for.

I'm prejudiced against ignorance in any form, forget religion.

My reading of this paper came through Bentham Science Publishers LTD not "3 S&J Scientific Co".

As a scientific paper it should stand or fall on its merits not by the assassination of the characters involved in its writing. I have yet to read a critique of the actual paper. Again, drop WTC from the information, and assume it was just debris collected from the collapse of some building. I don't have a background in chemistry and would like to hear from the "experts" on the paper itself.

Hmmm... I was hoping for a rational discussion

It is possible but don't forget the subject matter is rather controversial (like "the moon landing real or faked?").

Just because I posted it doesn't mean I endorse it, rather I was interested in those with a chemistry and material background to critique the actual paper and not the abstract which I posted. Did anyone link to it?

I skimmed thru the linked paper, hence my rather broad and strong statement "biased opinion from the very beginning". I felt like the entire point of the paper was to prove the thermite was present (where was the scientific impartial objective analysis of other possible causes and reasons).

I find it curious that WTC 7 fell without an impact from a plane

I was hoping that wouldn't get mentioned until later as that leads on to the "the government planted demolition explosives around the base of the tower to bring it down" conspiracy........

Perhaps this discussion could be pushed in a different direction applicable to the actual study, such as "how the thermite-like compound could have formed during the incident", rather than "government did it to start a war".

How about that everyone (it is a "Chemistry" not "General" discussion after all). No mentions of conspiracies and the for and against, just an analysis of linked paper's findings, the chemistry and the reaction (and structural analysis if applicable).

Thank you for moderating. My interest is on the science of the paper, not any conspiracy that comes with the subject matter.

How about that everyone (it is a "Chemistry" not "General" discussion after all). No mentions of conspiracies and the for and against, just an analysis of linked paper's findings, the chemistry and the reaction (and structural analysis if applicable).

Yes, I agree, I posted this in the chemistry section for that reason, an approach to the particulars of the paper.

The Utah connection did it for me.

2Department of Physics and Astronomy, Brigham Young University, Provo, UT 84602, USA: Jeffrey Farrer

3S&J Scientific Co., Provo, UT, 84606, USA: This place has only one goal.

Check these out.

I don't know much about using explosives to take down a building but from what I have seen on TV and on the internet relating to explosives based demolition heres what I have questions with.

Doesn't setting up the right amount of explosives take a lot of hands on work and actual up close hands on attaching of the actual explosive devices to key structural members?

And a fair amount of deliberate weakening of the other structural members as well?

And several days of work even with multiple people?

And wasn't that building occupied by regular people that would have seen all of this work going on?

Or at least wondered why all of the primary support beams are now out in the open and not enclosed and hidden in walls?

Even if this was carried out during a renovation project some time ago I seriously doubt that absolutely no one would have found some suspicious wires and odd devices attached to the structural members in that time. Computer lines, phone lines, electrical and other misc systems are constantly upgraded and worked on by countless public work people on a almost daily basis. Someone pulling new lines or tracing and fixing old ones would have had access to some very secluded places and would have asked about strange looking items along the way.

The men in black suits might be good, but not that good!

Just curious.

Steel, present in the building girders, oxidizes into ferric oxide, which is a component of thermite. The aircrafts were made of aluminum, also a component of thermite. Why is it so suspicious that they should be found together? Does this prove that thermite was used? Can you explain why millions of people around the world saw the aircrafts crashing into the buildings if the conspiracy theory is true? As for Tower 7, given the massive kinetic shock released by the collapse of Towers 1 and 2, has it like ever occured to you that WTC7 could have suffered severe structural damage and collapsed from it as a result? And while you're at it, please also explain why the conspiracy theory is supported mostly by people who believe in HHO and over-unity devices. IMHO, it's because the theory is so stupid only people who believe in such rubbish are stupid enough to fall for it.

I sure hope you're not one of these gullible fools.

Again, I'm not interested in the conspiracy theories, just the merits of the paper. The paper addresses the issue of active thermite being present, not just the components. BTW the collapse of WTC7 was never officially addressed. As far as I understand it was a double framed building made to withstand a direct impact from a 737. I'm sorry I've brought up WTC7 as I've opened a can of worms.

Vitriol is not conducive towards a rational discussion.

I'm so sorry, I only pointed out facts in a rational way intended to make you question what was written in the paper, and who its strongest proponents were. It never occured to me that you would not view it in a rational, objective manner. Likewise, I was only putting forward a reasonable theory for the collapse of WTC7. If the conspiracy theory is true, why didn't Tower 7 burst into flames, and why wasn't thermite found in its ruins?

I have to be harsh in pointing out the serious flaws in the logic of the paper because that is the only way to knock sense into the heads of people who would give credence to such nonsense. As for the merits of the paper, given that it proposed that the conspiracy theory is true instead of debating it against other more rational explanations before making the most logical conclusion, what merit do you think it has?

Like I said, I hope you're not one of the so-called "true believers".

As far as I read the paper only says they examined a sampling of dust recovered from a few fallen buildings and found active thermite in the examination of said dust. No mention of conspiracies.

"...debating it against other more rational explanations..."

That's what I'm looking for: is there a rational explanation for there being active thermite in the recovered dust? Or was the finding of active thermite erroneous, or was the paper entirely falsified?

Solidified molten aluminum + solidified molten ferric oxide. Think this is a plausible explanation? And that's not taking into account the possibility that they either analyzed the above alloy wrongly, or that the report itself was a fraud by conspiracy theorists out to make a quick buck at the expense of gullible morons. What do you think?

Actually, I thought that i had infact given such a rational discussion in post 2, Mass is conserved, Iron oxide as part and parcel of buildings structural framing, and aluminum as major constitutent of aircraft involved. the finding of these costituents is expected in reaction products, MASS IS CONSERVED. The Coincicdence is that in other circumstances, a possible mixture of these two BY THEMSELVES WITHOUT OTHER MATERIALS PRESENT, is called thermite. In this circumstance, they are normally expected reaction products. Knowing the physical properties of fly ash resulting from coal combustion the structural morphology of these two materials as a result of the conflagration are not unexpected. I am not all knowing, but i donot know a way to create the aluminum platelet morphology commercially.

Simple inds complexify, compex minds simplify.

milo

The wackos even went so far as to coin a new word for their "theory".

If you Google thermitic material you get this and only this:

1. The Raw Story | Study claims 'highly engineered explosive' found ...They claim their analysis has uncovered "active thermitic material": a combination of elemental aluminum and iron oxide in a form of thermite known as ...
   rawstory.com/.../Scientists_find_active_superthermite_in_WTC_0404.html -
2. Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World ...Watch the Daily Show with Jon Stewart on Comedy Central featuring current events & pop culture news. See Videos Clips, Read Articles & more.
   forum.thedailyshow.com/tds/board/message?board.id...
3. CR4 - Thread: Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from ...Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Cente. 07/27/2009 8:49 PM. Any thoughts on this: We have discovered distinctive ...
   cr4.globalspec.com/.../Active-Thermitic-Material-Discovered-in-Dust-from-the-9-11-World-Trade-Cente
   justgetthere.us/.../Active-Thermitic-Material-Discovered-in-Dust-from-the-911-World-Trade-Center-Catastrophe.html
4. Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World ...Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe. June 15th, 2009 4:17 AM Categories: 9-11 ...
   www.thepeoplesvoice.org/.../active-thermitic-material-discovered-in--1 -
5. Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World ...Based on these observations, we conclude that the red layer of the red/gray chips we have discovered in the WTC dust is active, unreacted thermitic material ...
   www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=13049
6. Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World ...The red portion of these chips is found to be an unreacted thermitic material and highly energetic." The images and data plots deserve careful attention. ...
   www.911blogger.com/node/19761
7. Study: Scientists Discover Active Thermitic Material in WTC Dust ...Apr 3, 2009 ... Jones discovered the curious thermitic material in 2007, when he ran a magnet over a dust sample given to him by a Manhattan resident ...
   www.indybay.org/newsitems/2009/04/03/18585901.php
8. Study: Scientists Discover Active Thermitic Material in WTC DustApr 3, 2009 ... Scholars for 9-11 Truth & Justice, 9/11, NIST, Steven Jones, Kevin Ryan, Thermitic, Dust, WTC.
   stj911.org/press_releases/ActiveThermiticMaterial.html
9. Debunking the Debunkers: Active Thermitic Material Discovered in ...Apr 4, 2009 ... "Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe" by Niels H. Harrit, Jeffrey Farrer, ...
   911debunkers.blogspot.com/.../active-thermitic-material-discovered-in.html
10. Thermite - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Thermite hand grenades and charges are typically used by armed forces in both an anti-material role and in the partial destruction of equipment, ...
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite
11. Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World ...To those of you who still have difficulty accepting that 9/11 was an inside job using control (Thermite explosives) demolition, The Open Chemical Physics ...
    socioecohistory.wordpress.com/.../active-thermitic-material-discovered-in-dust-from-the-911-world-trade-center-catastrophe/
12. Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World ...Open Chemical Physics Journal | Scientists discovered distinctive red/gray chips in all the samples they have studied of the dust produced by the ...
    www.infowars.com/active-thermitic-material-discovered-in-dust-from-the-911-world-trade-center/
13. 9-11 Research: Active Thermitic MaterialApr 20, 2009 ... Unexploded thermitic materials in WTC dust,explosives,residues.
    911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/activethermite.html I rest my case!

Okay, that settles the issue . The paper is a fraud written by conspiracy theorists out to scam some gullible fools or for some other similar nefarious purpose . If it was authentic, the authors would use the term thermite . Likewise, they would have concluded that the likeliest explanation for the presence of the "thermitic material " was what Milo and I both put forward separately, that it's simply the residue of molten aluminum and ferric oxide mixed together .

Great work ! Say, the Imperial Intelligence Service (an oxymoronic name if there ever was one ) has an opening for a capable investigator . You need a new job ?

Do I have to wear one of those funny uniforms?

Nope. Strictly undercover work. And you get to bed gorgeous alien babes in the line of duty too .

I've always fancied myself a dashing adventurous character. Sign me up!

OK, a little down to earth fact-checking. Those of us who have actually used thermite to weld will tell you several things:

It's hard to control. You need some kind of mold and you need to let molten material run down if possible.

The timing is very imprecise.

The amount of smoke and flare you get from welding a simple 110 lb rail suggests that to melt the steel in WTC would create a fume cloud that would darken the sun for days and the flare could be seen in Cleveland.

I'd find it easier to believe Tinker Bell did it than thermite.

It did not happen. The heck with peer-review in Copenhagen. How many of these jokers have ever used thermite?

You make a great point. We dropped the bottom out of a steel garbage dumpster back when we were pledging a fraternity in college using thermite and some rubber hose for good measure. (Air fed using a shop vac exhaust hose as blower.) Aluminum powder from college labs; iron oxide from blaster at a local fab shop where one of us worked. Magnesium chips to ignite.

The cloud hung overnight.

Our entire pledge class made it in.

"OK, a little down to earth fact-checking. Those of us who have actually used thermite to weld will tell you several things:"

That's what I was hoping for, someone with some direct experience with the material or chemistry of thermite. Thanks.

It's hard to control. You need some kind of mold and you need to let molten material run down if possible

Correct, we sell the single use thermite copper earth joint systems (the old ones with the reusable carbon mold) and they put out a lot of smoke. The TV series 'Mythbusters' also used large quantities of thermite to try and cut a car in half and ended up with a lot that just didn't ignite properly leaving telltale residue.

Where there's smoke there's fire, where there's a lot of smoke there's thermite being used.

Finally, thank you. I appreciate your insights into the incidental creation of thermite in the conditions which occurred on that day. That is all I wanted to know.

Very interesting discussion, and I realize that I'm chiming in well on a year after this thread originated, but I can't help wondering about something aside from the thermite question - how is it that those towers could come down at near free fall speed when there would be so much resistance from healthy floors below the impact areas? And the buildings fell into their own footprint with very little rubble remaining, relatively speaking. I would have thought that if it did fall as a result of the upper floors at impact zone weakening and collapsing onto the lower floors - one after the other, we'd see a pancake effect with very imperfect rhythm, twisting sections falling off to the side and toppling over a much wider area below and over a significantly longer period of time. Plus, a good deal more of these massive buildings piled up in a heap after the dust settled. This was not the case and the incongruity of it has stayed with me over the years. Any thoughts or plausible explanations on this?