Re-Lining Domestic Water Pipe Systems

A simple answer is. If domestic water lines should and can (by code and common sense) be lined the only company to call is Insitu-Form. They will tell you the truth and they do great work.

Mike The Boiler Guy

Thank you very much for the comment. Where can I find Insitu-Form's contact so I want to make a phone call and ask?

We've used Insitu-form for sewer pipes here in St. Louis. But I'm not sure if they will do the job you are planning on having done. Here is there main web site.

http://www.insituform.com/

I have used Insitu-form on effluent outfall (sewer) pipe refurbishing and they did a good job. I have used at least one other company to do the same thing and they also did a good job. The liner system that was used on some of these jobs is called "Inverta pipe" but I can't remember for sure if this was Insitu Forms brand. I think the name of the other company was Jones brothers Construction Co. They first floated a video camera through my 36" OD pipe to see what they were up against and the old c/s pipe was in very bad shape. Next they had samples of the contents analysed to see that I needed a vinyl ester type resin in my new pipe or "liner" to be able to withstand the chemicals in the sewer. The installation of these liners is pretty neat in itself because they use a very simple technique to get the sock or liner to go down the pipe with out having to slide it on the rusted pipe interior. Once they get the liner folded out into the pipe they circulate the water in the liner through a boiler truck and the heat causes the resin to "kick" or harden. After this was completed I had basically a new 1" thick pipe made from vinyl ester resin material. This technology works best on larger OD pipe that has few ells and tees and plenty of manholes or access points. I think we got it around 2 ells on one job but it was very tuff. I am not sure what size of piping you have to replace but I checked on having a 10" od line repaired this way and decided not to do it. The cost of cutting out places for acess points to install the liner and becuase of the many ells, tees and valves in the line it was cheaper to just replace the pipe.

Last year they did that to the storm sewers in my neighborhood. Same process of pumping hot water through it. It seemed to be very labor intensive to me. Many Tees, and always done in short sections of under 300 ft. The roadway was already being dug up to install new sanitary sewers and water supply. I thought it would have been simpler to just lay out new pipe. But that was just my thinking.

Bob you are 100% correct and I would never use one of these liners on any pipe that could be dug up without having to many things in the way on the surface. I think that on small galvanized water service inside a building the best way would be to rip it out and install new materials. The section of the pipe I lined was 10' under the some of the offices at the mill I work in as well as went under a huge HD tank. There was no practical way to dig this pipe up so I spent a good bit more money than I would have doing the liner. Another problem I had on this job was that In order to do this job I had to install 3 12" pumps and 1400 feet of HDPE pipe to temporarily by-pass the 19 million gallons a day of effluent that went through pipe. Istalling and maintaining the pumps/pipe in its self was more complex than both the excavation and the lining work together. It was one of those jobs that there is no way to plan out very well and in the end the whole thing took 3 months to complete instead of 1 month that was originally figured.

The neighborhood improvement program too 18 months. I sent letters complaining almost every month.

I have seen some projects that are doing horizontal boring under some big items. 2 years ago they bored under under I 95 behind our airport. They went under a 3 lane road, 12 lanes of I 95, 5 railroad track sets, 50 feet of grass,another 2 lane road, a security fence, an interior access road, and then finally came back out of the ground. I will admit that i know nothing about how this is done, it might offer a solution for you next time.

What is your existing supply pipe material (copper, galvanized iron, etc.) ?

basically pipe are made in galvanised steel

No, our pipe is copper!

Our pipe is copper. We were told by strata council we can't do re-piping because the copper pipes today do not have lead and because of this, the copper pipes today will be corroded more quickly and easily. So re-lining is our only choice. But I don't believe it. I still believe today there might be all kinds of new materials other than copper and iron to be used for domestic water pipe line.

I would guess that payment will be based on job completion and issue of final certificate by your plumbing department - so until or unless that happens the company should not get paid. I think you have to talk to a good lawyer quickly.

Yea I think they just need to read the contract. A lot of contractors will have various percentage charges based on work complete. Some also have a cost to cancel contract.

They might want to also look at what it would cost to put the work on hold. That might buy them some time to gameplan.

While your case may ultimately be decided by a court and lawyers, You should be an informed consumer. Find out what were the reasons that the previous project was not correct. If you wind up with Curaflo doing your work, watch what is being done. Take lots of pictures.Just the fact that there is always someone watching the crew and taking pictures will force them to make sure they do not take any shortcuts that will later cause them to fight for payment. Good luck.

I do hate to use this six letter word but contact your lawyer. Since the Surrey plumbing department will not issue a permit for re-lining domestic water, your property manager maybe inflicting damage instead of providing proper maintenance to your property. Start this legal avenue before work starts. This maybe grounds for summary dismissal of your property manager, regardless of contract.

It would be wise to just replace all the water lines with propex plastic. Nothing is better, lower in cost and lower in installation cost. Relining is expensive and when you are done you still have a system that can be a nightmare to maintain. Investigate the cost of a Pro PEX piping installed you maybe plesantly surprised.

I am missing something here, how can Curaflo start lining this pipe without a permit? Also who or what is the strata council? It is obvious this property manager and whoever this strata council is may have a reason to use Curaflo and getting the one quote. Most companies will not award work with only one quote after a certain dollar amount and this part alone sounds mighty fishy to me. I am talking about a reason they may not want to let out of the bag so to speak. It is evident they want to get the job done in a hurry so they will be "locked in" having completed the work they will have a better chance forcing payment. It sounds allot like a spin on the old saying "that sometimes it is easier to get forgiveness than permission" The posters here have already told you to get a lawyer, I agree and would like to add the sooner the better. I am not sure I would get a lawyer or fire the property manger first though thats a hard call. With you all being the owners why can't you just tell them no and get the hell off the property?

Interesting problem.

The water in Surrey tends to be neutral to slightly acidic, but the life expectancy of copper should still be in the order of 50+ years. (Water is Stratford ON is quite hard and basic, so copper lasts "forever")

Are you lining because it leaks?

Are you sure you have the correct motivation? What prompted the repair?

Condo's in Surrey are almost all less than 30 years old.

It may be just an elbow or some other joint that could tolerate a single point of repair.

(I,m just another home owner in Surrey.)

Our building is only 19 yrs old. The pipe is made of copper. We were told in the minutes that the soft water in the lower mainland corrodes the pipes and it has pin-holes along the pipes. Leaks happen when the pin-holes can not hold the water pressure.

I would be interested if that was an independent engineering inspection or was provided by Curaflo. Surrey not giving a permit may be a hint it is not business as usual.

Have you seen any signs of leakage?

The Curaflo web site is way too slick.

How many roofers will give you a free inspection, the roof is in terrible shape, you need to repair it right now before massive damage, the whole roof needs to be done, but if you can't afford that you must put a new cap strip on right now. Vancouver is known for scams.

Just my 2 cents.

I have worked in plumbing in the US. Usually copper pipes will last more than 30 years without any problem. The exception to this is if the pipes aren't contractor grade. Since the contractor grade pipes are thicker, they are more expensive. Some companies try to line their pockets by using low grade pipe, and then the property suffers like yours has. I would check into this and make sure that you haven't been shafted by a contractor, and if you have they will likely have to pay to replace it for doing work that isn't within code.

Hi Guest,

Just to say it is very difficult to tell 'Contractor Grade' from any lower grade and so thinner pipe by the time it is pin-holing? Unless the Contractor Grade's OD is larger. If so it is not by very much.

Take care

Hi GW,

With ref' to the life of copper pipe.

I have always lived in a chalky area, and the pipe in my home had to be replaced twice in the past fifty years. And the pipe now gets regular pin-holes which have to be rectified.

But, the new copper pipe is about half as thick as the old original pipe. So you cannot really say a copper pipe can last 50 years. Depends on the quality of the pipe and the conditions of us and the soil type.

Take care

I agree with the weight of copper pipe.

40 years ago service entrance copper used to be a very heavy walled dead soft, (with tin/lead solder joints). I haven't seen much copper used recently (last 10-15 years) with a huge push to plastic. I never trusted the plastic stuff. One type was heavily pushed out here in BC, then 10 years later there are massive law suits because it is failing. (Darn, my 14 year old house is full of it!)

The copper pipe I see at the local supply shops appears to have half the weight of what I was used to. It dints easily and can be easily damaged with handling. I would not be surprised if it lasts half the time.

Hi GW,

I agree, agree, agree!!!

As you say the plastic in crap! It can take very little pressure before the joint part. And its life is know to be pretty short.

I had to fit a whole estate of homes with a plastic sewerage system. looked fine, but I knew the life was no more than 20 years. So all the links to the houses and the links between the group drains which were 12 feet (4 Metres) deep, and took up half the space of the gardens. So it would be a complete disaster when it was ready to be replaced.

I had no option but to fit this as it was spec'd.

Take care. And what happened to the good old ideas of salt glazed pipe? It will last as long as and longer than a houses life time!

Hi 'Guest',

I have not heard of domestic water pipe relining.

If, you are talking of taking the old pipe out, and replacing it with new, then I can see no problem with this. As long as you all want it done!

Why does this 're-lining' need to be done? And are you actually talking about the metal, copper and or coated steel pipe?

In the UK you would usually have the choice about who you allow into your home. It may be different with any plumbing on the external part of a building but in general you do have the choice and the right to say NO!

I am confused because there is two different 'guests' on this thread. One says they have copper pipes. One says they have steel. Which applies to you please?

I think this could be a case of a Lawyer being a necessity!!! And FAST!

Get together with your Neighbours and the cost will be a whole lot lower and if all say they do not want the relining done, there can be no argument that the relining cannot be done because the homes effected completely disagree with the project.

I wish you luck. And you may find it helpful to actually join the CR4 site. That way you as a 'guest' will not get confused with any other guest on this thread. Please see my reference above about there being two 'guests' each saying completely different things.

Take care, and please join and keep in touch, or identify yourself as the 'guest' whom started this thread. Thanks.

Thank you. I have not heard of domistic water pipe re-lining either. But it started to be discussed in our building last year. In last year AGM, our minutes showed re-lining was approved and assessment was approved based on only 1 quote from Curaflo. The president of strata council in our building has been the strate council president for 10 years. We got several anonymous letters sent by "you know who" saying the president and the property manager get some benefit from the project they introduced to the building. People started petition to stop the project but was ignored by strata council. We were thinking that maybe the whole council was crupted, otherwise, by Strata property act, they can not ignore owner's petition. We checked the law system in canada and found out that in a strata, there is not a government organization to supervise the strata council's behavior. The only way to resolve is to go to court.

Hi GW,

Good research here !

GA to you Sir.

Take care

Hi Guest,

I am assuming you are the OP, (Original Poster)?

You need to get together with everyone else in your block or area where this 'Relining' is said to have been passed to be carried out.

Write two letters and keep two files or more depending on whom ever you write to. Send a letter and keep a copy to the BC Council or government, and the same letter (but explaining you have send the other letter to BC) to the National Government of Canada. If possible, and I know it is, send the National and the more local letter to your MP, and or a real person, and explain the urgency and ask for a reply to reach you in say 2 weeks. Do this and/or ring the MP and BC Councillor saying you will also make this 'official' by sending a letter.

Now, can you tell me a little more of where you live, is it a block or high rise, or street of houses. It matters because if it is a block or high rise there will likely be only one feed.

Get yourself, as a group a working Architect or Surveyor and ask for a report to be done immediately, this will say one way or another if the work needs doing and how urgent it is. I suggest you start a bank account and agree with all involved any amount of cash or cheque to be paid upfront into this which will be your 'Fighting Fund'. You can give it a catchy name if you want, anything which is likely to make a good headline!

Also send the same letter to your local News Paper and or TV Station.

If the idea of relining is dropped, then you have lost nothing other than the cost of the report from the Surveyor. If this is substantial you can take the company who said they were going to do the work in the first place to Court to recover it .

Small Claims Court

In the UK this can be done without there even being a court meeting in a court room. You can Sue anyone or any Company in a 'County Court', and the actual Court section is called "The Small Claims Court"

If from the time the Court says the Company will receive the Summons they are given a certain amount of time to reply to you or the court. You will find out this amount, whether it be a week, fortnight, or month at the Court as you hand over and or discuss your claim against this Company.

If the company does not reply in that given time, you have won by default.

Now you have to bear in mind what the surveyor says and this should be part of what the Court is given. Once it is sent it will take no more than a month, and you can ring or write to the Court to keep in contact and to find out if your claim against the Company has had any reply.

This all assumes you have this system in your Country!

I do not think I mentioned in my first post that any Council in England must get at least three 'Quotes' for any Job to be done. Whether it is Painting, grass cutting, re-roofing, whatever. The Council then notifies each person or dwelling and or Factory in the area to have the work done, whether it be a one off or a regular contract, as it would be for grass cutting.

To finish, yes copper pipe does get pin-holes. This is often a Cathodic effect, where in effect you home is a large Battery. You have Steel, Copper, and Electricity, all connected and so usually it is the copper being the pipe which in contact with the substance (WATER) which wheres it done, the copper (I think) is the Cathode.

Of course even if there is pin-holes, you can get together as a group and re-plumb your block or whatever it it, though it would be easier for the Council to do it, it does not mean these dodgy company has to do the work!

I found this Cathodic action from bwire last year, he is a Member here on CR4.

Of course I may be talking out of my 'ass' if your electric and water system are not combined!

Whatever may happen, get together and do something! Do not let these people walk all over you because it will set a 'Precedent' for any future work, and who can do it Legally!

Take care and good luck.

PS. Please realise I am giving you my own personal advice from my own experience. This has nothing to do with CR4. And as you are in another part of the World completely, you must find out these details and take your own or a group decision as to what to do, OK?

I have repaired pinhole damage in copper water pipes many times and have the customer call back with another leak before I get back to my shop. This pinhole leak and repair cycle thing can go on for a long time and will continue to have pinhole leaks until the pipe is replaced. The use of die-electric unions anywhere copper joins up with different metallic pipe material will help prevent this cathodic corrosion and are made for this purpose.

I agree with the above comments. No permit, equals no work. Have you contacted the condo's insurer, Or even yours? They might not take to kindly to the possibility of law suits and insurance claims. Also the building department has the authority to shut down this work. Call them or your local counsellor. Scream stamp your feet. They are supposed to be there for you as you are a tax payer. They work for you.

I am a contractor for over thirty years. There are two ways a single bid is asked for and accepted.

1: There is a long standing relationship between the contractor and the customer, based on past performance, reliability and honesty.

2: The other is kickbacks

I SMELL A RAT!

Or a friend.

Hi Icurus,

To right! I completely agree with what you say!

take care

I wish someone would do something about the pipes in my building. I don't know how many gallons I have to let it run before I can get some water out of the tap that even resembles good drinking water (2-5 minutes of full blast running water for one measly glass to drink).

Our answer was just to buy drinking water .

It's just not It was back on the farm as a kid, drinking excellent water pumped right out of the ground. Now its all recycled sewage in the city.

Hi RVZ,

with regard to your filthy drinking water.

It sounds like you have either a very rusty tank, or an open uncovered tank which possibly has dead birds or worse?

If you and others agree, or if the local Council does after checking it, the Tank can be replaced or cleaned?

In the 21st Century you should never have to live with this thing.

Take care.

No tank... I live just down the street from the water treatment center. Its all pressurised city grid water. I pay a flat rate water/sewage fee, along with everyone else in the building, so at least it doesn't hurt my wallet when I let it run for a long time. After it runs for a while it actually is fairly good drinking water, with no real foul tastes detectable. I attribute it directly to the piping in the building, I'll have to see if the hose outlet on the bottom/outside of the building is the same... maybe its all in my head. In any case, filtered water is about the only thing we will drink, unless were out, then its time to let the water run down the drain for extended periods of time.

Hi RVZ,

I am amazed you live next to the water plant and still get terrible water?

I would first fully check my house plumbing and if it checked out fine, I would be giving that water company so much s-it you would not believe.

Heh, take care OK, bb

Hi, It sounds like your Property Manager is a joke. How could he let you get mixed up

with a company like that. Is he totally incompetent ? Or is he in choots with the Piping company. Why didn't he check them out before allowing them to even give

a quote. It sounds like something fishy is going on there. Sorry I can't be of any help.