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1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

10/23/2009 11:12 PM

Alright here's the situation. I came back form deployment six months ago and replaced all the fluids in the truck including the OEM brake fluid. Shortly thereafter, I replaced the upper and lower ball joints on both the driver and passanger side front suspension. However, when I reinstalled the suspension the coils did not seat properly and I had to R/R the suspension once more. This is where the brake problem begins. I originally installed the aftermarket front suspension and have R/R many components on it with no issues. However, this last time I was in a rush to get it done and had a friend giving me a hand. As I removed the driver's side he removed the passanger's side. During the installation he installed everything as I came behind him and torqued everything down.

After the install I took it for a test drive and everything seemed fine until I made a hard right turn into a parking spot or performed a 3 point turn at which time the brake pedal goes all the way to the floor. After a pump the pedal returns to normal. There is no evidence of leaks on the tires(caliper) on the three rubber lines, at the master cylinder or anywhere else. I have also put the truck on a lift and bleed the brakes twice also inspecting for a ballooning rubber line. Neither was an issue. Recently, I noticed that the drivers side hard line coming down from the master cylinder was sitting only about half an inch above the upper control arm. The hard line to soft line adapter was the culprit and once I tightened the frame mount down it moved the hard line out of the way of the upper control arm. This seemed to fix the problem for a bit and made me think that as the suspension compressed on the drivers side during a hard right turn the upper control arm was hitting and possibly pinching the line. However, after a day the problem returned. Since the truck is ten years old I am thinking about replacing the three rubber lines, the slide pins on the calipers as well as the hard line that got pinched in the event that there is a small crack at the flare inside the nut (no fluid leak though). Does anyone have any ideas as to why it only happens on hard right hand turns(again brakes are fine under normal driving) and any suggestions as to troubleshooting the brake components to isolate the problem?

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#1

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

10/23/2009 11:47 PM

Hi Chuck,

I don't know that much about automobile repair/maintenance, but I just want to say thank you for your part in service to America; I believe that in these times, there are way too many liberals people who would criticize your contribution in favor of their political agenda.

As a former soldier, I salute you.

Mike

P.S. I'm pretty sure that you will get some help here for the problem you have described.

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#4
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Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

10/24/2009 1:28 AM

Thanks to you too for your service to our great country Mike.

For the liberals:

"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night, because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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#2

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

10/24/2009 1:00 AM

Strange... I still think something is pinching a line... Might put chalk dust or something on the line and repeat the problem and then look for where it has come off.

I seem to remember on my 97 that the brake line went near the spring, is it possible it is getting hung up in the spring?

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

10/24/2009 1:21 AM

yeah i noticed when I lifted it a few years ago that the rear soft line rubs against the shock. So I cut an extra piece of line and zip-tied it around the line in that spot. Now I just replace the extra piece every so often. I checked it in that spot and its good. Thanks for the input though I'm sure alot of people have the same problem with the Ranger and won't even know it until its too late.

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#5

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

10/24/2009 2:43 AM

Weird bubble in weird place?

Strange that the pedal should go to the floor if there's a pinch in the pressure line...

RR

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#6

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

10/24/2009 3:34 AM

What kind of condition is your master cylinder in? Ive been on a deployment or two myself and know what can happen to a car/truck that sits (should have seen my X reg mini when I got back from Turkey). Water accumulation in brake fluid is not uncommon when it sits, could be rust in the master cylinder has nicked the o-rings and you are getting bypass there. This idea doesn't account for the odd timing of your problem though.

After following everyone else's suggestions for finding a bad line, I would recommend a thorough flushing into a clean container (so you can inspect for debris) to ensure the oil is good and find any junk/water in the oil. If you still get problems inspect the master cylinder.

Good luck

Drew

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

10/24/2009 4:07 AM

Definitely the next plan of attack only problem being that I don't know the proper way to test a master cylinder. Any suggestions on testing would of great help. Also its still odd to me that it was fine before the last r/r of the suspension and faulty immediately after. Plus the part of only going to the floor when in a hard right or three point turn. Stanger things have happened but it seems to me that if it were the master cylinder that there would be a loss of pressure under normal driving conditions as well. I have a general understanding of the prinicples of brakes and am techinally proficient enough to rebuild/ replace the parts of the system however I don't know the right way to trouble shoot it down to a specific part. Gonna jump back into it on Sunday any advice on testing a master cylinder?

Cpl USMC 6217 F/A-18 Powerplant Mechanic

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#8
In reply to #7

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

10/24/2009 12:04 PM

Are your brake calipers "floating" types?
Is it possible that the brake caliper is being physically moved over during the hard right turn...thus the brake pads are pushed back into the caliper and away from the disc...pumping the brakes then reseats the brake pads against the disc.

Regards Woody

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#20
In reply to #8

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

10/25/2009 6:41 AM

I think you hit the nail!

Most probably either left or right side the flexable brake pipe is too "short" when steering to full lock. See if one of the hoses is pulled taut.

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#62
In reply to #8

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

03/25/2010 2:03 PM

I just love how the solution is posted early on, highly rated, and yet completely ignored by the person with the problem....

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#9
In reply to #7

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

10/24/2009 12:42 PM

The only thing I know about master cylinder is rebuilding one by replacing the o-rings. That isn't as tough as you would think; drain the system from all points, pump the brakes leave the bleeders open and the cap off the master cylinder, use clean jugs so you can inspect the fluid then start unbolting the master cylinder. It should have a piston go in from the firewall side and the power brake gizmo on the other. You should see how to disassemble it, pull the piston out and replace the o-rings. If the cylinder has minor pitting or rust, ask a mechanic if you can sand it clean.

As for the odd timing of the brake loss...not sure. Occam's razor indicates that once your eliminate all other possibilities what you have left is the problem. If the system doesn't leak and the calipers are assembled properly and there are no pinched lines or swollen hoses...what does that leave?

On another idea...brake systems are simply a hydraulic pump. You push the pedal it transfers the pressure down the lines to the calipers, you release a spring should pull back a minute amount, or the pressure is released back to the reservoir. If there is a leak you pump the brakes. Every time the pedal comes back to the top, the piston in the master cylinder reservoir pulls back enough to let some more fluid back into the lines replacing what is lost. Now, if one of your hoses was being compressed it would push fluid into the reservoir requiring you to pump it back which could be why your foot goes to the floor. Use the powder idea posted previously, that will show where stuff rubs or compresses. Unless I could get my eyes on it, this is the best advice I can come up with so far.

Good luck! and just remember to test your brakes before you have to stop to make sure they are there until you fix this.

Drew

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#10

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

10/24/2009 5:06 PM

OK, this one is way out there. Do you have ABS? Does your ABS have two sensors on the rear wheels? If so, if one sensor is faulty, it could be sending false signals to the ABS control, and the solenoid is malfunctioning, causing pedal failure when the rear wheels are going at different speeds.

Otherwise you can have a bad master cylinder. The master cylinder in my '89 developed a rusty zone inside. I tried to hone it out, but the metal was gone.

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#12
In reply to #10

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

10/24/2009 11:06 PM

The turck has RABS only. I have been reading through my Haynes manual and there is a RABS valve on the frame rail that I hadn't previously bleed. The manual also says there is a RABS sensor but doesn't say how many or the locations. So, tomorrow I am going to bleed the system again, double check the front calipers again and try the baby powder on the lines trick. I am also going to check the vacuum on the power booster for S and G's ( even though a bad line or power booster would only make me stand on the brakes to come to a complete stop this line is also ten years old. I might as well check it out while I'm in there). The soft lines are only $15 a piece and since they're ten years old I'm just gonna replace them if Kragen or Napa has them in stock. The hardest part about it is I can't get it to duplicate the gripe with the weight off wheels on a lift. One other odd part, when I tap and release the brakes while pulling into a parking spot I don't have any issues when applying the brakes in the hard right turn.

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#11

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

10/24/2009 10:38 PM

Tough one to answer without some testing, but if I had to guess I would think you have a master cylinder issue! Hey hanks for serving, I did seven under water as Chief Engineer on 688's.

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#13

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

10/24/2009 11:18 PM

a co-worker had a problem, that had some similar aspects.

his had a binding caliper mount. be sure your calipers slide freely.

(compress the pistons, then the calipers should slide with hand pressure)

it troubles me that the problem is one direction, only.

I would look for pinching of the hose, possibly.

you have enough age to have deteriorated hoses. a hose with a crumbling inner liner, (common)could restrict when twisted in only one direction.

make sure that one caliper hasn't been twisted an extra turn, as well.

I would recommend all new brake hoses due to age alone.

Most likely, a hose got pinched, or twisted due to the servicing process, or being out of place. the inner liner has crumbled, and blocks the line, when twisted in a certain direction.

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#17
In reply to #13

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

10/25/2009 1:09 AM

The same thoughts about the brake lines have been going through my head too. Everything was fine until I had a friend give me a hand in my rush to get the job done. I didn't watch what he was doing as I was performing the spring removal/install on the opposite sides, he could have easily twisted the line without me knowing it or looking for it while torquing the suspension components down. 90% of the people I talk to think its the master cylinder but to me it just seems odd that it was fine before the install and 2 hours later it was FUBAR. That and it only happens during a hard right the point where the passenger side line compresses and the driver's stretches.

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#21
In reply to #17

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

10/25/2009 6:52 AM

As you said: The pipe stretches....thus pulls on the caliper, pushes the caliper-piston in and the brake fluid is forced back to the master-cyl reservoir through the little hole in front of the primery rubber washer.

That is why you need to pump the pedal to bring the caliper-piston back to its propper position.

Jurie ZA

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#14

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

10/24/2009 11:22 PM

As mentioned in an earlier post the brake fluid absorbs water from the air and this water can turn to steam in the caliper cylinder. hence; pedal to da metal.

If you bought new fluid from the manufacturers agent they may have a large container that they drew off a small quantity for you. I have seen this before. All their customers brakes rusted up due to the large container being left open to the atmosphere.

Personally i like the other post suggesting that the rotor is pushing the pad to one side. Check your wheel bearings for slack.

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#15

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

10/24/2009 11:44 PM

Repeat the thank-you's for serving all of us.

Don't completely assume the service work you performed caused the problem. It may have been ready to fail and your other work and testing may have added the straw to make it fail.

You are correct in seeking a test for the master cylinder. In that thought you will also need to simulate the failing circumstances of the turn into the parking place. This will be very hard or impossible to simulate in your driveway plus you would need to have isolated or disconnected the master cylinder to really determine if it is bad or the problem is down stream in the system.

My thoughts are if the master cylinder is bad, what happens during the turn to make the problem appear. Could the fluid be "sloshing" to one side allowing air to temporarily enter the piston/cylinder area? Not likely since trucks go through harsh movements normally and the brake systems are designed to allow for it. Could some mechanical alignment be stressed or torqued between the pedal and the master cylinder push rod? You commented that the second push pumping of the pedal restored the braking so that indicates that either air is in the system (even momentarily) or restriction has been cleared, or you have the power assist working again.

Another line of thought could be that the vacuum assist has become sensitive or intermittent. I assume you have power brakes and the power comes from engine vacuum. Go out to an empty parking lot; remove the vacuum hose from the vacuum assist and test it a little to get the feel of power brakes without power. Look around to see if any point in the vacuum supply (the whole engine) could be affected by a turn into the parking space test. You can test the vacuum assist by removing the hose from the engine and using a vacuum tool to create vacuum and let it stand under vacuum for a few minutes (yes, bump it, shake it). Vacuum leaks on any engine are tested by spraying some light oil or WD40 on the connections and watching for smoke out the exhaust. A little harder with the pollution stuff today.

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#16

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

10/25/2009 12:20 AM

We had the SAME problem racing a Fiat 124 in ITC at Sears Point Raceway around 1992. We pulled our hair out trying to figure out how we could still have pressure and a good pedal- yet, AFTER hard braking down the long straightaway and into the hairpin turn, the pedal hit the floorboards! We could pump it up going up the shecain, yet it was hard to get your heart out of your throat after that first long pump with no response!

The 72 Fiat 124 had power assisted four wheel disk brakes- and we put them to the test- out braking the competing Datsun 510s. and we won the ITC championship - twice!

The problem turned out to be our "flexible" rear axles. During hard braking in our "locked up" rear end, the axles "twisted" like a tort ion bar. This caused the rear axle flanges to "potato chip" only during hard cornering and braking while pulling "Gs " in a corner. As the rear brake rotors were attached directly to the axle flanges, they turned into "pulsating cams" actually pumping brake fluid back into the master cylinder-the 12mm wide rotors as seen by the rear calipers were as though they were 1" thick during their overstressed condition. Yet, when static, all brakes operated perfectly! Other posts mentioned similar possibilities. Look for something that would cause brake rotor instability in a tight turn. You will find it!.

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#34
In reply to #16

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

10/27/2009 9:44 PM

A tip of my hat to you for working out that problem on the Fiat. But in this case, he does not seem to imply that he is driving it hard, he just has to make a turn to loose the brake pedal.

I would think that the wheel bearings could be out of adjustment on one side, but in that case, the brake will get lower just from driving straight. No turning will be required.

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#18

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

10/25/2009 1:56 AM

GA to ODD parts. There is a lot of lateral force in extremes of lock due to Ackerman correction being for road at speed, not parking. Parking puts a lot of axial load on wheel bearings, especially with nonstandard wider tyres and so extra rim offsets.

If wheel bearings are not precisely adjusted, the hub floats, moving the disc, pushing a pad in (if the caliper runs out of float).

Do the turn maneuver, (stop using the handbrake, don't touch the foot brake) and see if you have grown gap/s between pad and one side of the disc. E.g. see if a strip of thin cardboard will slip between. See also if caliper float is now hard one way.

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#19
In reply to #18

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

10/25/2009 5:18 AM

Thanks for the advice I will try it out later today. Its definitly gonna be a hard stop though with a foot actuated parking brake. Ill post anything I find out the norm and the status later today.

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#22
In reply to #19

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

10/25/2009 8:36 AM

You don't have to be fast. You can just drive in a circle. Full lock, gun it a touch to get the front scrubbing, hold the lock and let it stop by itself. See if you get your problem

If so, drive straight for a bit then do it again and inspect / measure.

Re the bearings, A. check the shaft fits are good (not worn shaft or wrong cone)

B. torque them to specs - not a guess.

Best of success and I look forward to your post.

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#23

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

10/25/2009 11:30 AM

Chuck,

You don't need a lot of lateral movement between rotor and caliper to push back and basically leaving you with no brake pedal on the first application.

Re-inspect wheel bearing set up with the caliper pulled away from rotor. It's not until you make the turn and put that side load onto the wheel assembly that you push back against the caliper. Check both sides. Some Ford use small spacers around the pins/calipers they can be reversed and it will still go together, when in trouble check everything.

Sound maintenance would dictate changing hoses at ten years but I believe your problem is more mechanical than hydraulic. Follow through with your caliper pins either clean and bright with the right lube or new ones with no rust. Don't forget the rubber parts.

A leak is a leak and will leak all the time not just on right turns. A "ballooning" brake line will also be there all the time.

It's always great to get back from a deployment welcome home!

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#24

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

10/25/2009 1:16 PM

Such good answers, all. You gotta let us know what you find to solve this. One other thing happened to my Ranger. When I replaced a front rotor, the bearing nut and washer would not tighten up on the bearing! I had to file the flat spot the washer hit. The washer has a 'D' shaped hole. When I filed the flat so the washer could press on the bearing, all was well again. To check for this problem, try to rattle the wheel when the wheel is jacked up.

I like the moving caliper ideas. To check that, have somebody watch your brake reservoir(with the cap off) while you turn the wheels hard right. If the fluid is rising in the resiervoir, there you go.

After all that front end work, new flex lines is a good idea, the insides can get messed up. Best of luck, soldier.

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#25

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

10/25/2009 5:56 PM

Lots of comments and suggestions. My vote is : right front flex hose too short,pulls caliper in on hard right turns, greatly increasing pad clearance from rotor--requiring full or near full pedal stroke to restore pad-rotor contact and normal braking action.

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#26

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

10/25/2009 7:47 PM

My bet is on air in the master cylinder.You must double-pump the brakes to get operation.Probably air in lines to wheels.

Attach a rubber tubing to the bleeder valve, and place the other end of tube in a container with about an inch of brake fluid in it.make sure the end of the tube is below the fluid in the container.Loosen bleeder, and pump brakes.this can be done without another person inside, because the fluid acts as a check valve to prevent air getting back into master cylinder.Top off master cylinder after each cycle.Air could have been lurking in the sytem for a while, and finally is rearing it's ugly head.I would thoroughly bleed again before pulling my hair out.

As for why only on sharp right hand turns?No idea.

I once had a car radio that would quit every time I made a left hand turn onto a CERTAIN highway.No other left hand turns affected it.Approaching the same section of road from another direction had no effect, so it wasn't a signal loss problem.I took radio to a service tech, and he put it on a
"rocker" that banged it in every direction.No intermittent failures.Replaced antenna bushings and wire.Same problem at same turn on same road.Never did figure it out.

Hope this helps.

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#27

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

10/27/2009 1:14 AM

Welcome back, and thank you.

Back in the early 70, 1 ton Dodge vans were able to rub the calipers against the travel stops on hard turns with up and down travel. This left a no brake condition till the pedal was pushed once. Does your Ranger have a lower control arm with one inner bushing or two? If the Ranger has a single inner lower bushing, then it also has what I will refer to as a strut rod to locate the lower arm forward /rearward. This strut arm can be installed upside down, this would now not allow the end of the strut arm to contact the spindle on full turns. Instead, the caliper will hit the lower arm.

Check the contact point when turning left full travel, then check full right contact point. If you need to, put a dab of grease on the travel stop. and see what it hits. Good luck. And thanks again.

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#28

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

10/27/2009 8:30 AM

Here is my theory, for what it is worth:

There is an air bubble in the line near the master cylinder.When you make a hard right turn, the G force pushes the bubble into the master cylinder, and the first stroke has no fluid present,.However, it forces the air back into the line, and the next stroke is normal, air having been moved out of the way by the first stroke.The bubble is sitting there waiting for the next hard right to do it agin.

There was possibly a bubble trapped in the line when the front end was dissasembled, and was set free by the temporary straightening of the flex lines during dissassembly,reassembly.

Re-bleed the brakes using the fluid- container- air trap method I (as guest) previously mentioned and that should solve the problem.

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#29
In reply to #28

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

10/27/2009 12:38 PM

Air in the system will only give you a spungy pedal and nothing else. It is for sure either the left or right hand caliper-piston which is moved away from the disc in some way when you make a full lock right hand turn.

Hope you have found the trouble by now!

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#30
In reply to #29

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

10/27/2009 3:21 PM

I agree to a point: If the air stays in a line, you will get a spongy pedal.If it is a large bubble, in master cylinder, pedal will go all the way to floor, as OP said in his post.

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#33
In reply to #28

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

10/27/2009 9:36 PM

If there was an air bubble it would either be there, or not. Once the pedal is hard, there is no more air.

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#31

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

10/27/2009 8:15 PM

This may sound like a silly answer (and you may already know this) but in my experience there is a proper way to bleed the brakes starting from the longest brake line first, which in most cases is the rear passenger side, then onto the rear drivers side and the front passenger side.... you get the picture.

Since I'm not there to inspect the vehicle it's really hard to just guess; but start with a good proper line bleed first. If you have done that, then I would inspect the master cylinder and the push rod behind the master cylinder from the power booster, especially if you replaced the master during your RR process at any time recently.

Good luck; your getting closer to the answer.

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#32

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

10/27/2009 8:36 PM

Pedal goes to floor on first stroke: 2 reasons:

1: Piston in master cylinder is letting fluid leak by,not building any pressure.

2:Air in master cylinder, with air being pushed into line on first stroke.With air out of the way, fluid returns and cylinder works,meanwhile the air bubble awaits it's next opportunity.

A pinched line would not cause the master cylinder to bottom out, it would cause lack of brakes only on the affected wheel.Would not feel any different to your foot, but truck would pull to one side during hard braking.

Bleed brakes using a pressure,vacuum, or liquid check valve method. Sometimes with a second person, the signals get crossed between the man under the vehicle and the man on the brake pedal, and improper timing can actually put air in lines.

If you are 100 percent sure of your bleeding process,master cylinder is suspect.

If you are losing fluid, and not seeing any external signs of leakage,the master cylinder could be leaking into the power brake booster chamber.I have seen this happen, with no external sign of leakage.If it leaks on the pushrod side, you will still have power assist and no vacuum leak.You may or may not see a small leak around the floorboard inside of truck around brake pedal rod.

Hope this is helpful.

Ezstreet

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#35
In reply to #32

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

10/27/2009 9:51 PM

A master cylinder that is "bypassing" brake fluid when pushing the pedal will usually be at it's worst when the vehicle is in reverse, and one is backing up slowly. A simple apply and release of the brakes. Not enough release to reset the master cylinder all the way to the rest position, just enough release to allow the car to roll again. This slow repeated apply, semi-release, apply, semi-release is the easiest way I ever found to check for the "bypassing" master.

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#36

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

10/27/2009 10:51 PM

Chuck,

Thanks for your service.You are all unsung heroes in my book.

Looks like you have gotten a lot of opinions from this group.

Please inform us of the final solution to this intriguing problem.

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#37

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

10/28/2009 10:12 PM

Well I finally got the time to put the truck up on the lift at the auto hobby shop here on base and this is what I found:

1. I checked the wheel bearings for play ( which was present) then upon further inspection I found both spindle nuts (wheel bearing adjusters) were only finger tight. I pulled the rotors off, and removed the bearings. Then, I thoroughly cleaned and repacked the bearings. Afterwards, I reinstalled the rotors and torqued the adjusting nut to the specified torque to include torquing, backing off 1/2 turn, then re-torquing.

2. I checked the tie rod ends for play and found that I could move the driver's side spindle a good 1/4 inch back and forth. I pulled the cotter pin and torqued the tie rod end to the specified torque. After installing a new cotter pin there was no more play in the driver's side spindle.

I ran out of time at this point as the hobby shop was closing. However, when I took the truck for a test drive I immediatly felt more positive braking. But, when I made a tight right hand circle the braking problem was still present. A few things that I noted during the inspection was that I need new sway bar urethane links/mounts and inner tie rod ends. I am also ordering rubber brake lines all the way around and new caliper slide bolts. At this point I am not sure what is going on, possibly a stuck slide pin? When the new lines arrive I am going to install, then bleed the entire system starting from the master cylinder, the RABS valve, then from farthest to closest brake and see where that gets me.

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#38
In reply to #37

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

10/29/2009 12:19 AM

Wow, all that and still no love. I am glad you went to the auto hobby shop, I didn't know how long youv'e been in and if you knew about it but I kept forgetting to recommend it to you. I worked at the Auto Hobby Shop at RAF Mildenhall, the mechanics there used to help me and others work on our cars (its where I learned most of what I know). Did you ask the mechanics on duty about the problem? They are there and can observe and advise whereas we can only read, visualize and relate to our experience.

Drew

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#40
In reply to #37

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

10/29/2009 11:47 PM

Hi Chuck, having done all that, which sounded overdue (and worthwhile)

If I'm understanding "hard" in turn means "full on smok'n", I think you are down to three things

1. a stub axle integrity problem (Ford design rather than a fault as I think you would have found a looseness, poor fit, or crack by now)

2. too "short" a hose - (suspension travel pulling the caliper).

3. Body mounts are shot - making a standard hose "too short".

The cardboard test I outlined will find all of these.

I doubt it is air or fluid leakage of any kind.

2. or 3. are most likely

For 2, in an ideal world, you jack the front, remove the springs and shocks and manipulate the suspension up and down, with force, cycling through full lock in both directions and seeing if the hose pulls tight at any point.

A less complex way is by jacking the chassis, so the suspension fully extends, and get someone to turn it lock to lock - see/feel what happens.

Most hoses on most vehicles go quite tight on suspension extension, but you should be able to deflect the hose an inch or so with finger force - (like a fan belt) - not; be able play a tune on it.

If it seems ok, with the chassis on stands, using a good sized bit of timber to spread to force, carefully jack the body near the closest body mount to the hose attachment vicinity. If the hose goes straight away too tight, you have most likely got a de-laminated or split body mount.

It's likely in your case the RHS is "short" due 2 or 3 or both. But check left suspension "full up" if RHS shows no signs. It can be due to suspension compression - idiot re-routing and the like - rare but...

Also consider pull direction on the caliper I.e a better 'sideways' line of pull with respect to the slide bolts, will move a caliper more easily than a pull nearer 90 degrees to the bolt axis. It may be a not fully tight hose - just it has better leverage at full lock.

"Short" can be caused by someone moving or bending the fittings anchor bracket on the body.

"Short" can be from someone raising the ride height - and not moving the bracket or not fitting a longer hose.

"Short" can be caused by shot body mounts in "lots of roll" conditions when the hose mount bracket is on the body - (which it the usual set up, so the steel lines don't fatigue with body to chassis flex).

A new hose will not cure these.

If it is the hose pulling, it's fighting the full spring force - WHEN the hose fails, it will be 'catastrophic failure', meaning zero symptoms before zero brakes

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#41
In reply to #37

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

10/30/2009 9:41 AM

Have you looked at what is stopping the wheels from turning when you turn the steering wheel? This should be done with weight on the front wheels as when the truck is driving. If you do not have a drive on rack, you should place a jack under the lower A arm. Good luck.

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#39

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

10/29/2009 5:36 PM

Does anyone have any ideas as to why it only happens on hard right hand turns(again brakes are fine under normal driving) any suggestions as to troubleshooting the brake components to isolate the problem? If the brakes are normal then there is no air in the system or fluid leaking past the primery master cyl. washer.Test by pushing pedal hard with vehical in stationary position...if pedal moves down slowly, you've either got a fluid leak or the mastercylinder primery washer is worn.

Please check if flex brake pipes on either side is pulled taught when at full R/H steering lock position or if anything is interfering with the brake calipers in this position.

None driven wheel brgs like front wheels must be torqued to about 35nm while the wheel is turning,then loosened according to specs [depending on the pitch of screwthread] and locked in this position. So... with the wheel fitted you can just about feel some wheelbrg play.Just like bicycle wheel cones. If you tighten the wheel brg nut and lock it in a "no play" position, there is no room for ghrease thus wheelbrgs will overheat and fail soon!

Best of luck

Jurie SA

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#42

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

11/08/2009 5:54 PM

my son in law bought a 88 ranger and it had no brakes on full left.

it has been lowered with lowering arms. on full left turn the brake caliper hit the arms and when you step on the pedal the caliper is not able to actvate and recirculates the brake fluid. check the turn stops on the right side.i welded on the stop to prevent over turning. problem solved for me

good luck and have good veterans day from a vet

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#45
In reply to #42

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

11/08/2009 10:49 PM

Welcome to the insanity.

I believe you are correct in the caliper to arm problem.

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#43

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

11/08/2009 7:05 PM

Lets think about how a brake sytem works:It is a closed loop system, and all of the fluid recirculates from the master cylinder to the calipers or wheel cylinders.When brake pedal is applied, fluid is forced from the master cylinder into the calipers or wheel cylinders.In turn they each move a small amount.The pressure builds when the calipers or shoes contact the rotors or drums.Resistance is felt in the pedal at this point.If no resistance is felt, then the shoes or calipers are moving too far to reach the rotor or drums, or fluid is slipping by the master cylinder, or air is in the line .When the second stroke is applied,the additional volume is added to by the second stroke, and the shoes or calipers make contact, providing resistance.A kinked line will give back pressure, not a 2 stroke operation.Air in the line will give 2 stroke operation of brake pedal, also a worn master cylinder will do likewise.The centrifugal force of the hard turn could be moving an air bubble into the piston area of the master cylinder.Double check your bleeding.

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#44
In reply to #43

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

11/08/2009 10:47 PM

The centrifugal force of the hard turn could be moving an air bubble into the piston area of the master cylinder.

Do you think the centrifugal force is moving the air bubble with the cf, or away from the cf?

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#46
In reply to #44

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

11/09/2009 12:51 AM

Hey Bob, this has just reminded me of a thing to puzzle children.

Take a level, put it on a flat surface, ask the kids what will the bubble do if I tap the level on the end (so it moves a bit). Will the bubble stay centre? Will it move in the direction of the tap? Or will it move opposite the tap (like it is left behind)?

Gives you a good 20 minutes peace, but maybe you gotta get a new level if you don't' hide the hammers.

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#47
In reply to #46

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

11/09/2009 11:43 AM

There must be something wrong with my level. The air bubble leaked out.

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#48
In reply to #47

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

11/09/2009 9:35 PM

Not the laser level Bob - the spirit level kind. Try an antique shop.

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#49
In reply to #44

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

11/09/2009 11:42 PM

The cf is not moving the bubble directly, it is moving the fluid.The bubble always tries to move "uphill", or opposite the fluid flow.The bubble must be on the left side of the Master Cylinder before the hard right turn forces it into the Master Cylinder.The first press of the brake pedal forces it back into the line, and the second press is solid because the air has moved.The pedal will still feel a little "spongy" if air is present, but still good braking.

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#50

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

11/10/2009 2:09 AM

Alright its time for an update on the situation. This last weekend I replaced the brake pad clips and caliper slide pins for S and G's along with other preventative maintenance work. When I was working on the calipers I began to inspect within 18" of every brake component to see if there was any wear indications or abnormalities. It was then that I noticed that there are deep notches on both lower control arms. So, I dropped the truck back down to the ground and turned the wheel as far as it would go in both direction. I'll be a SOB if the aftermarket spindle wasn't making contact with the lower control arm and allowing the caliper to also come into hard contact with the lower control arm. I tried to find a welding shop today to fabricate a patch and new stop to fix the problem but they were all closed (on a Monday??). Driving back to base I stopped by Offroad Warehouse to see if they could weld it up for me. Within 30 seconds of explaining the problem the salesman asked if I had a Ranger. He then informed me that it was a well known problem with the lift kits and that they make there an aftermarket steering stop to remedy the problem. Too bad the kit was for a Ranger Edge which has a torsion bar suspension not a coil spring; the kit wouldn't fit. So, first thing tomorrow I am going to the the welding shop to see if they can hook me up and stop me from S@%*ing my huggies everytime I make a 3 point turn.

Got a question that maybe someone on here with more knowledge can explain to me. The brake caliper is hitting the control arm directly behind the caliper pistons. This is obviously stopping the offending caliper from functioning. Since there is always fluid in the brake lines and pressing the brake pedal directs more fluid from the master cylinder to the lines which in turn applies the hydraulic force neccesary to actuate the pistons in the brake caliper why is it that the brake pedal goes all the way to the floor? Thinking it through the master cylinder wouldn't be able to actuate only the one brake caliper, but why would the three others cease to funtion? Similiar to if you have a stuck caliper the vehicle pulls to the one good side left or right. What makes this different? Is there a bypass valve built into the M.C.?

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#51
In reply to #50

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

11/10/2009 3:03 AM

Thanks for letting the cat out of the bag, Chuck.

As to the questions that you posed as to "why........." instead of addressing each individually, perhaps I can shed some light on the whole problem by describing the nature of the mechanics involved. The entire fluid volume of the brake master cylinder is about one quarter (about, or less) of the volume of any one caliper. This is what gives your leg the tremendous hydraulic advantage clamping force on those hard disk brake pucks to grab a spinning iron rotor. The hydraulic mechanical advantage is like pressing the plunger on a syringe filled with water to inflate a water balloon. Yes, the balloon does not expand much, yet those brake pucks are only a snakes skin thickness away from the rotors, and the pressure from your thumb on the syringe has just been converted to to enough pressure to lift the entire weight of the truck (although not very high).

Yet hydraulics work in reverse as well. That is, with a ton of force, (like available from the power steering), you can push the caliper piston back into its bore- as you did on your hard right turn where that interfering new component shoved that "floating" caliper against the pad, stopped by the brake rotor. Now, that mass of brake fluid travels back into the master cylinder. So why did the brake pedal not reach out and kick you in the leg when this happened? Because, the brake master cylinder- at rest- bypasses the fluid into the fluid reservoir. "No Pedal" on subsequent braking is because the brake master cylinder has to fill up that caliper and return the pad to its normal close-to-rotor position with more fluid volume than is available in the smaller master cylinder bore in only one (or two) pumps. I could go on, but the blue arrow on the right of this post says my time is up. Thanks for the entertainment!

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#52
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Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

11/10/2009 10:33 PM

Well done Oddparts.

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#56
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Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

11/12/2009 12:25 AM

Actually, on audit post 8, Woody wins. GA 4 winning Woody

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#53
In reply to #50

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

11/10/2009 10:45 PM

Glad you have a grip on the problem. Just to be sure, check for an air bubble. I am still missing the one from my level. It has to be some where.

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#54
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Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

11/10/2009 11:52 PM

LOL Bob - thanks!

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#55
In reply to #53

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

11/11/2009 8:50 AM

I think I found it and a few more in the last bean burrito I ate.I don't think you want it back.

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#57

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

11/18/2009 3:09 PM

The Truck is fixed!! It turns out that it was the notches in the lower control arm that allowed the caliper to come into contact with the arm at full turn. This contact stopped the calipers from operating while in a hard turn. Once I had the notches on the arm welded up the problem immediately went away. Just want to say thank you to everyone who contributed in this discussion and I have to say this is the only forum I have been on where the regulars don't run away with discussion and turn it into a internet measuring contest.

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#58
In reply to #57

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

11/18/2009 3:14 PM

If you want the run-away thread you will have to search for it like I did...still not sure I am glad I did (one cup?)

Thank you for including a conclusion to your problem. It is always good to know what the solution turned out to be

anon

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#59
In reply to #57

Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

11/18/2009 5:51 PM

Good job, Chuck. Glad you got it fixed.

Also, thank you for posting your fix. Fix posts are highly appreciated. We don't get nearly enough.

In closing, also let me add thanks for your service to the nation.

Best wishes!

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#60
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Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

11/18/2009 9:27 PM

GA from me for the same reasons above - especially - great to know how it worked out

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#61
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Re: 1999 Ford Ranger with an odd brake problem!!???

11/20/2009 10:23 AM

Thanks again for letting us know, and for you service.

If you want to visit a runaway discussion, try CR4's "Bath Breaking" thread.

Now that your Ranger's problem is resolved, you have become obligated to stay involved, and offer up the lower arm travel stops as a cure for everything from electrical shorts to cracks in concrete.

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