Ceramic Coating Insulation?

I think they mean 32 per inch, and even that seems high. Insulation paint on a thermal mass that also seals in and out air leaks can be very good.

find out first. once bought it may be useless, but they have your money

They may load it with glass microbaloons, which make it foamlike. glass microballons are tiny glass spheres.

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=%22glass+microballoons%22+%2Binsulation&btnG=Search

Check out :- http://www.ceramicadditive.com/work.html

You seem to have hit the nail on the head again 'aurizon' ceramic evacuated micro-balloons, but with the evacuated cavity about a quarter of the diameter, or effectively 1/64th of the volume, I start to wonder what great contribution it is making. OK the middle of the balloon is 15/16th of the area....big deal! I don't want to knock this product, I think some applications, for instance painted over metal, a good heat conductor, could make a significant improvement. Painted over brick or wood especially, I very much doubt it?

Make those vacuum cavities larger, say half the diameter or more, and things might take a dramatic turn for the better? when it reaches 4/5th.....then we are cooking. that stuff might even float on water? I reckon the folk making this product, need to invest in a 'Vacuum Chamber Kiln' They are allowing their ceramic bubbles to collapse far too far.

I first worked with these in 1965 in making super insulation. We got samples of various sizes and wall thicknesses and they had a vacuum inside produced by vacuum heat soaking that enhanced the diffusion out. They lost out to cab-o-sil for just the reason you mention....to high a % glass

The superinsulation was 100 layers of 1/10 mil aluminized mylar with a little cabosil into the nip as you rolled it up. This separated the layers of mylar slightly and the whole thing was placed between inner and outer layers of a container and then a high vaccum and heat soak was applied to outgas it and it was sealed. This produced the so called "super insulation"

That sounds very efficient aurizon, Nearly twenty years ago, a violent storm blew the roof off a local electricity hardware wholesaler's warehouse. the rain got in and thousands of cartons of fluorescent lighting tubes were written off. I was a regular customer, and asked if I could use them to insulate my loft. "As long as you don't sell them, be my guest" was the reply. Maybe not 'super-insulation' but I have not complained. There is about a foot thick of them in places. I liked the Twisty ones.

Yes, they would work OK as long as you sealed the space to prevent air exchange. around the bulbs. Twisty ones might not be as good as greater air cell volumes for convection to arise,

Sounds a bit like the Maurice Ward's Magic Paint featured here:- http://www.alternativescience.com/flame-proof.htm

Quote:-

"A little later that year the whole nation had an opportunity to see for themselves the effectiveness of Maurice Ward's new paint on BBC Television when it was featured on "Tomorrow's World". Presenter Michael Rodd showed viewers an ordinary chicken's egg that had been painted with the new coating. The paint was so thin it was not visible. Rodd then dramatically donned welder's visor and gauntlets, lit up an oxyacetylene torch, and played the flame directly onto the egg for several minutes.

When he removed the flame, and cracked the egg on the table top, viewers were able to see that the coating was so heat resistant that the egg was still raw and had not even begun to cook."

But They did not tell the audience about 'Laminar Flow' the Flame just went round the 'Egg' Those who care to make a solid metal impression of their hand, (Danger) can if they know how, wave their hand in front of a Oxy-Acetylene powder metal spray gun. Just build up the metal slowly. Then like me, hang it on the wall as a curiosity.

Ceramic coating has been used on exhaust manifolds ('headers' for our American readers) for many years to reduce heat loss to the engine bay, is this similar?

Might be. The glass micrballoons are OK to near the melting temperature of glass. They could not be organic and the only way you can get good insulation value is with voids, although even solid ceramic is a far better insulator than bare metal. It this applied like the vitreous coatings on kitchen ware or as a paint that dries? You can make an inorganic paint, but unless you fire it so the grains melt together it will be vulnerable to vibration

I'm pretty sure the ceramic coating used in the automotive industry is applied as a dry powder that is electrostatically attracted to the metal part (similar to electroplating). The part is then baked at high temperature melting and forming a very hard, durable coating. I didn't realize it had thermal insulating properties, I thought it was only used for protection against corrosion.

I wouldn't trust that "egg" test unless they ran a simultaneous control (do the same thing to an uncoated egg). Who knows? Maybe eggs just won't cook over a torch.

I'm skeptical but also hopeful. If it can really help your application, set up an experiment to see if it works. Buy one or two cans and try it. Compare it with a conventional paint to see if it's any better.

Thanks guest,.... "The all important control test" ....fundamental to proper scientific investigation, sadly often omitted.

Those coatings were more decorative and for corrosion
protection than anything else.

Exhaust manifolds may run hot enough to soften micro-balloons.

these ceramic coatings are non organice. The microballons are good to 1800 F, I have never seen a manifold with even a dim red glow.

The coatings can reduce the heat into the engine compartment by 50% or more because they are poor conductors and even 1/16 of an inch is far better insulation than 1/2" of steel, and for the same reason they will reduce the surface temperature due to the establishment of a new gradient from the hot side.

UK Registration:- "FKK 423L" Full Le Mans spec Lotus Europa. Manufactured 1972. Colour 'White' (A.K.A. 'The flying J.P.S. Pick-Up Truck )Engine modified by Cosworth Engineering, Suspension Etc. by Tony Judd. Lotus & Team Jaguar.

There was a dull red glow on the white ceiling most times she went to bed. The manifold glowed so bright red, the back lid had to be opened lest she burst into flames.......Happy Days. Home Office Licenced to "GO", if authorised, and with Co-Driver. Part of the Cold War "A2 to "B" in double quick time....Delivering of all things, "Scratchy Vinyl LP's" for overseas broadcast, and Radio 3....blah blah,

By the way, The 'Substance' of which you spoke in response to my last post, is also known as the 'Common Wealth' please may I extend an open invitation to all CR4 readers to visit Scotland and share some of that wealth. Wikipedia will direct you. Bless You All from Alastair.

The only way I could imagine the exhaust manifold getting red hot would be very badly burned exhaust valves venting combustion gasses out the exhaust ports during operation. Normally the expansion of the burned charge during the power stroke will reduce the exhaust temperature well below visible.

http://www.beautifuliron.com/usingthe.htm

I guess they must have been 'Very badly burned exhaust valves' then. The engine required a complete 'rebuild' after each 'run'.... and by the way, the 'Law' was very specific, Unless the 'Navigator' was a Police Officer, 'Velocity' was the only dispensation...i.e. no filtering through 'Red Traffic Lights' and always stop for pedestrians at 'Zebra Crossings' Etc. Quite sensible when you think about it. On motorway runs, a lead car would stay ahead in radio contact with the navigator. You did exactly what he commanded....Happy Days. Journeys always started from the House of Lords. and usually at 5 PM....Blooming Rush Hour!

Not familiar with race car engines. Very possible they will go to extremes in allways = red hot manifolds. I had heard they had to rebuild them after each race because the castor oil used as a lubricant would soon undergo oxidative cross linking and turn into a varnish en situ if not removed. Up to that point apparently castor oil was the best lubricant for engines. Now synthetics rule this arena.

Quite true Sir. Castor oil was used up to the late 1960's, FKK423 L used an aircraft oil, clear as water, I was told it was chemically related to epoxy resin. The engine was 'dry sump' I remember a panic with a kind old gentleman as passenger, when a plastic bag must have wafted into the oil cooler. The oil temperature needle was going right up. we had been driving down a narrow roman road with hedgerows to both sides at near 140 mph. My passenger was a cool as a cucumber. I was scared witless in case some farmer decided to herd his cows onto the road.....We stopped and I removed the offending half melted bag.

The car was white, so that it would stand more chance escaping from ground zero...what a grizzly thought. The other kind old gentleman passenger loved the ride. enjoyed every minute of it. The late James Hunt was also a House of Lords Chauffeur. We were both at Wellington College together. Great Racing Cars and Their Drivers, by Chaz Fox sold a few million(Charles Fox). Chaz was Collin Chapman's Press Spokesperson. He is still about. He fell victim to MS like Steven Hawking, when motoring correspondent for the Tunbridge Wells Courier. Collin bagged his services quick sharp. 'Portrait in Oils' was his blockbuster. When Steven was drafting 'A Brief History of Time' Chaz, a good friend of Steven, recommended me as a sort of invigilator. If I could not understand the mathematics, nor would the general public. Chaz advised Steven not to have any mathematics in the book at all, not even in an appendix. I treasure Steven's letters to me. bless him. I want to take him for the Blackpool Big Dipper ride, but have not heard from him yet.... coward!....Sorry to be such a wicked 'Name Dropper' It was such a huge privilege to briefly meet him. By the way Steven still uses the 'voice box' that I believe Mr. Rocket of 'Radiospares' Cambridge organised for him. There are better ones now, but folk are used to the old one. What a lovely name Mr Rocket.... you know your urgent dispatch will arrive on time ( Chaz's California Tel:-001 4158681148 & Fax:- 0014158680217 he loves to talk engineering, give him my love if you call him and his brothers and nephew David's)

Well, I was a consumer and not a race car enthusiast. I had a 450 SL, which I took to 150 MPH on the New York State throughway, and at that speed you are very aware of how far from flat the road is as the car would bounce around a lot at this speed. I finally stopped as I feared for the tires, which might have overheated.

I am amazed you survived that roman road at 140 MPH, unless it had been made well flat and macadamed. Yes, the red and green farm tractors, I wonder how many people know about those?

I also had a AH 3000 MKIII, which I drove for a while and finally sold

The 450 SL, those Germans know how to build them. OK between 130 to 140, I was not looking at the speedo. I was looking for those red & green tractors. The amazing thing about that Lotus was it's road-holding power. Colin Chapman allowed quite a few of his racing drivers to test it, not one of them dared take it to the limit. At Hethel the Lotus Factory in Norfolk, all they could do was spin it. they would have been quite safe, Unsprung weight at the wheels was the secret. iF you opted for the Lotus racing suspension with mag-alloy wheels, it seemed the faster you went the smoother the ride. within reason. It was horrific in a heavy rainstorm for aquaplaning, especially in those long puddles. After the Lotus, I reverted to very calm and sedate driving. I think it cured me of any desire to drive fast. I wonder what the best paint would be to survive a nuke white-out?...no paint at all I guess, like the De Lorian. Those were fearful days for many. Most of us had resigned ourselves that the 21st Century would be an 'Aftermath' experience. Let's be very thankful we have survived.

A friend of mine has a DeLorean. A mixture of quality and utter crap. It it were not for the SS body they would all have been in a landfill by now, but the SS endured, like those sand blasted cars in the desert in the south west, zero water and salt makes them last for ages. You can still go there and get older cars that look OK in the body.

That 450 was a hulking thing, dense and heavy. nothing like any of the lotus breed who are gazelles by comparison. They had a very low CG, few fell over..Should I really call the sly old fox in bolinas?

I think your friend has probably made a good investment. The Film 'Back to the Future' will ensure 'Cult' status. DeLorian ran out of money at a crucial moment. The Oil Crisis had just kicked in, and Irish troubles were starting. I believe the DeLorian was intended to be a far higher specification motor, but the company lowered the specifications to reduce the selling price. Collin Chapman was furious, Lotus were making the engine for it, then the specs were changed. I think Lotus were in hope of entering the 'Grand Marque' Class. Ferrari, Maserati and Lamborghini were in his sights. The DeLorian was a test-bed for the project.....we may be slightly off topic, but Automotive Paints need to cope with searing hot temperatures. We spoke on this thread of how an insulating paint would be most beneficial for application to metal. Those ceramic micro-balloons could find an application in an undercoat, perhaps? I noted from their literature that keeping cool showed up as a major benefit and cost saving. I have lived in Kenya, the roads used to be 'dirt' and even with all the windows closed, you got covered in the red dust. Open the windows just a crack, and you were choked......but.....THE HEAT!......Our job as kids in the back seat, was to judge when the dust was at tolerable levels and quickly open the window. Often to groans and complaints that we had misjudged it. When we parked the old Citroen up. We often baked 'Meringue Confections' under the sloping back window...Honest!

If you do as the Guest suggests and test this paint out, let us know what you find out. I am sure we all would be interested, as many of us would have good use for such paint.

I had used ceramic contain paint from auto part store to paint exhaust manifold. They works. The paint never got burn off or change color. I never put my hand on it to see if it really insulate that good.

well, any ceramic will be a poor conductor compared to the metal of the manifold, so it will impede heat flow and might stop casual burns from being bad burns as they will not transfer as much heat as a direct metal contact would.

It will also prevent the gradual oxidation that attracts dirt

I have heard that those paints last ok for a year or 2, but eventually burn off. The company I work for, Parkway-Kew Corp., specializes in industrial thermal spray coatings. We (and other suppliers to the auto racing industry) use plasma spray equipment to apply a zirconium oxide coating to exhaust components. Though not as hard as aluminum oxide, it is typically a better insulator. It can be applied to cylinder heads and piston tops also, thus keeping heat in the combustion chamber.

Gene Klein

From a 'Brother' Mad Scientist, here is an insulation concept, If you examine a feather under a microscope you will see that it is a 'Fractal' construction. the 'Feather Fronds' also seem to be feathers.....and so on.

Most of us have seen a 'Bottle Brush' ...Lots of nylon filaments trapped in a twisted pair of wires. Above I have drawn what I imagine is how the wires and filaments are laid out prior to twisting? To the right is a 'Fractal' reduction, instead of nylon filaments, small bottle brushes are laid out.

I wonder if it would be possible to manufacture synthetic duck down, by a similar process?... Just a thought from another 'Mad Scientist'

Down, down, down.

http://www.asc2006.com/posters/FP-11.pdf

nice pix,

how about elephant down?

They don't say whether those nano fibers are hollow. I Understand that carbon nanotubes are highly conductive of electricity, and most good conductors of electricity are also good conductors of heat, but at nano- scale who knows? Perhaps it might be possible to grow nanotubes of some other material in Alastair's (sp?) fractal design.

Thanks Aurizon, What a great read. I am indebted to you for that link.

Professor Frank Ko, Drexel University,
and Professor Darrel Reneker, University of Akron, certainly have researched their subject well.

Don't mock the 'Elephant Down' concept quite yet, many moons ago, in a past incarnation, I was helping a friend Derek Adlam at Finchcocks Keyboard Instrument Museum Goudhurst Kent, to select a suitably springy fibre for the 'Jacks' of Harpsichords & Virginals Etc. I had brought back Elephant hair bracelets from Kenya.

You were pestered by street-hawkers the moment you arrived in Nairobbery. In tests the elephant hair performed the best of all.....'Loft'.... I noted was crucial to the performance of a good sleeping bag. The ability to 'spring back', I know that most squadies treasure their genuine Eider Duck Down sleeping bags for just this property.

We went about trying to replicate the elephant hair, weight was not important, so we discovered that Glass Fibre/Epoxy Resin made a suitable substitute. Just get some glass fibre and regular Araldite, make a Lollipop spring, i.e. sandwich the strands of epoxy/glass-fibre between to lollipop sticks......blah blah....sand away the wood if you forgot to wrap them in cling-film. and then be utterly amazed at how strong a spring it is.

Now back to the 'Fractal' concept, I noted from that paper several important criteria. (1) "Weight" (2) "Loft" (3) I.R. reflectivity (4) Trapped Air (5) All the rest.

Dealing with (3) Infrared reflectivity (accounting for about 50% of performance I read), makes me think of all that tinsel bunting we hang over the Christmas Tree. There must be a machine that makes that stuff a mile a minute or faster. miniaturise that, Twist Electro-spun PAN from (Drexel University) into a 7 filament thread, but have that 'Tinsel' stuck to the fibre. Just give a strong twist to two threads that are still sticky with epoxy, If each Thread is counter-twisted, they should fly together into a dual twist. Next wind them into a coil. that should give plenty of 'Loft' especially if the coils are mixed 50/50 left & right hand spiral. ....they should resist 'meshing' like that......blah blah.....

The Elephant Down concept is 'BRILLIANT'... Thanks Aurizon.... Do the prototype LARGE first.

I asked my wife how do you get down from an elephant, and she said a Lady alights from an elephant, you get down from a duck...poor duck, I thought.

As for fibers. I think a process whereby the organic source is dyed to block infrared and the fibers after being spun and flattened to enhance the loft.

I think the paper you showed me, made mention of 'Nano-fibre' for insulation, great for preventing 'air convection' losses, but useless for I.R. The authors noted glass fibre research from way back in the 1940's that showed fibres in the region of 5 to 10 micron performed best in this respect.

I am putting 'Loft' and 'Weight' as my two top criteria. The Elephant Joke was superb!..... Clean and Decent, I can tell it to both the Amelias, The Amelia portrayed above can arrange for my decapitation.....But only in Scotland....phew! so I have to be careful with my jokes. The presence of the seal is the presence of the person. The other Amelia would protect me.... I hope.

I see you are a man of substance, intricately carved, sitting in your living room, with family.

Yes, I prefer jokes that are funny in their own right too.

Have heard that this was used successfully on some refinery power piping and in some fossil plant FGD ductwork. I would check with NACE or SSPC for better info. Maybe even major constructors like Bechtel or Flour Daniel.

Test Result download was pretty good. thanks.

Hi madscientist, We have technology of the covering of aluminum by heavy-duty isolating coating. Hardness of the coating is 9,5-9,6 on Mohs (diamond has 10,0) or 3000 - 4000 kg/мм2 on Vickers. Thickness of the coating is 50-500 micron. Electric insulation of the coating is 1,5 – 3,0 kV as a rule. Temperature of destruction is more than 2500K. The chemical formula is Al2O3. Krass

what keeps the aluminum from melting away from the anodizing at 2500K?

Nothing. 2500K only for Al2O3.

That sounds great stuff krass, It might resist a laser beam for long enough if say a rocket was spinning...perhaps. Back to the topic of this thread, I believe, from what I hear, that Pyrex micro-pipette can be floated over of molten tin, The tin is floating over a multi-layer stack of very thin steel? sheets. Surface tension prevents the molten tin from penetrating the 'gaps' between these sheets. Thin heated tungsten filaments can cut the glass micro-pipette/ hollow glass fibre into little sealed pillows. This is all done in vacuum, the pillows of glass float off and are collected in a sieve. that returns the molten tin to the 'cheese-cutters' The pipettes are 'sequentially' cut by multiple thin Tungsten wires. and several thousand hollow fibres can be cut simultaneously, laying over the molten Tin mush like the warp threads on a loom.

Gold as a very thin deposit was regarded as the best IR reflector, and the micro-glass evacuated pillows allowed to collapse to near flat in a subsequent heat cycle under partial vacuum..... about 100 x 100 microns per pillow. I guess.

If you go to EBAY and find the store ENERGYCONSERVATIONSPECIALISTS you can see/evaluate/buy a product called Thermalkool aka Thermalcool. It is a non-toxic blend of materials that is at the top of the coating industry for it's applications and results. Call Ed (let him know that Jason Short up in AL sent you)...he will give you any answer you need in relation to your specific application needs/requirements.

There are several products which are different ratios of the same ingredients, which insures bonding of subsequent layers (if needing all possible properties...water-proofing, radiant-heat proofing, bonding, filling, etc.) It is being marketed at this time under the philosophy of an energy-saving ECO-roof coating (for many nationally-needed reasons). I am going to be purchasing to bond, seal and insulate the cement-block footings for my mobile home to eliminate the need for stucco/sealant and fiberglass insulation between joists (renovation rather than new construction...when we build in the future, there are recommendations that Ed has for a simple process promoting tremendous energy efficiency as well as natural disaster protection). Then I will be coating my metal-over-shingle roof with the R-150 coating system. His roof (and thousands of others in FL) has withstood 3 hurricanes and a tornado with NO DAMAGE (rain gutters bonded to roof as well). He cools his 2300 sq-ft house (S.FL) for a constant $50-60/month. I jumped on GLOBALSPEC to see if I could find an identical product with less cost ($1.50/sq-ft for R-150...50 year guarantee...100 years upon 2nd epoxy top-coat within 5 years of intial application...approx. $200/5-gal). Not going to happen.

From my perspective, this product/process has numerous other applications that have not been fully evaluated to tremendously benefit society through the benefit of the various properties this product has...but I figure, I'll cover my own butt first and reap the benefits of the best application...saving money through energy efficiency and future home maintenance CREATES TIME FOR ME.

Jason R. Short

quantumwater@gmail.com