Where do Agricultural Engineers Stand?

High Time FAO recommended--" Due to the machine aspect being best handled at Manufacturing Plant level and uses being determined at Farmer level-- the term Agricultural Engineer can be discontinued forthwith - any special knowledge should be imparted inside the Farming Diploma curriculum"

Where should they stand? Why in their field of course!

Seriously, "Agricultural" and "Biological" engineers as their name implies deal mostly or entirely with matters of biology, and living things which is considered a "soft" science, compared to the "hard" sciences of physics, mathematics and chemistry which is the realm of most other engineers. Agricultural and biological engineers have important roles to play in the world, but mainstream engineering deals with the "hard" things like machines, bridges, electronic devices etc and we are perhaps over sensitized to the perceived "watering down" of the engineer label for things like sanitary engineer, which typically means one who hauls or removes trash or other waste.

Take heart by the fact that as technology and bio-engineering advance, they (the biology and the physics based professions) are becoming increasingly intertwined. Ever larger numbers of mathematicians and physicists are getting involved in bio-tech fields because of the tools, and methodology now employed. This will only continue to increase. Likewise, biological agents and methodology is creeping into engineering as the value of biological agents and/or products is increasingly appreciated as an efficient means to accomplish tasks that formerly could only be done by mechanical or chemical means, or in many cases couldn't be done at all (at least not economically). The recent advances in hybrid biological/electronic sensors to sniff out extraordinarily low concentrations of explosives, toxic substances, drugs etc is a good example, combining as they do "engineered" organic receptors and solid state electronics and fabrication methods.

As we learn evermore about biological functions, we are getting down to the level where areas of physics can be applied to both better explain them or utilize them. Good examples are in the working of amino acids and proteins, or the replication of DNA and RNA at the molecular level in both living cells and in vitro.

I'll stop here but I think you see where I'm heading. The "soft" sciences and "hard" sciences won't merge entirely, but their distinctions are becoming more blurred as we are learning to literally engineer living things in a laboratory.

Greg G is correct - and thinking many things aloud-like he always does.

I only submitted--'let us not create more 5 Year Degee holders with an Engineering Degree - which is (nut &bolt) Engineering'.

And -may be - train deep-knowledged "Life Scientist"s instead. We have to eat-eat well-eat healthy-remain healthy in mind and body in a world where we are already taking all of human knowledge(acquired so far) as fundamentals –and forcing all to move on to unknown territory deeper and deeper in search of improved lifestyle for each of the 6+ Billion.

When I was a freshman at NC State majoring in Aerospace, I had a roomate who was a graduate student from Cornel in Ag Engineering. The guy was brilliant, and was taking graduate level Aero courses in boundary layer theory for application in the design of poultry houses. One thing that amazed me about this guy was that he'd always do his PDE and boundary layer homework with a Bic inkpen- I never saw him mark over any of his work and he alway aced it too. Even more remarkable was that he'd smoke a big fat doobie before he sat down to do his work. I never got the impression that Ag and Bio Engineering was a watered down engineering discipline.

An Agricultural Engineer, if such there be, Should be Out-standing in his Field!

Such wit shouldn't go unrecognized, Guest. Perhaps it should be punished, but recognized nonetheless.

Merely "Winding You Up!"

That's what he got the award for....

I have many friends in Central and South America that have University Degrees in Agriculturial Engineering. It is a very common course of study in Latin America. It seems to combine the more basic elements of Mechanical and Civil Engineering....Long on practical aspects and not so much on Physics and Mathematics.

In countries where agriculture is the principal economic engine, Agriculturial Engineers are in the majority.

Here is a reasonably good description I found by "Googling" :

Definition: Agricultural engineers apply knowledge of engineering technology and biological science to agricultural problems concerned with power and machinery, electrification, structures, soil and water conservation, and processing of agricultural products.Agricultural engineers apply knowledge of engineerinscience to agricultural problems concerned with power and machinery, electrification, structures, soil and water conservation, and processing of agricultural products.

HH McDonald PE, BSME

i agree, all ag engineers are outstanding in their fields ... ever since mendel applied genetics, the animal husbandry tactics no longer seem so simple. no longer do cattle have a wild determinate, but they are selectively bred for milk production or meat production. no more dinner and dancing for bossy

Anytime a profession doesn't feel adequately recoginized they add the word engineer to their job description. Hence we have garbage men called sanitary engineers, social workers called human engineers, etc. Being an engineer is widly recognized as a challenging, difficult and rewarding profession and everyone wants to be associated with it. Now we have farmers wanting to be agricultural engineers and biologists thinking they should be so honored as well.

What world do you live in - where I come from an engineer is generally regarded as being 3-or-4 rungs below an estate agent (realtor in the US)?

BTW an agricultural engineer is the sort of person you want to have around if anything goes wrong with machinery in the middle of nowhere, because he/she invariably seems to be able to find some apparently unlikely method that fixes the problem until the recognised solution is available.

[Fellow of 2 internationally recognised engineering institutions (and unlike the agricultural fraternity, I can't mend things mechanical - so my wife correctly says I am not a "proper engineer")]

Are you one of them?

Agricultural Engineers are the people that bring technology to the farm. In the United States they are a mixture of Mechanical and Civil Engineering. Recently they have included genetics. They are the reason farms a clean, safe, environment friendly and , low cost. Without hem you would be buying food in the bazzaar every day.

You mean without them we wouldn't have the factory farms which are breeding most of the new diseases (like Bird Flu) in the world today?

Farm clean and safe? Ok someone is living is fantasy world where we harvest meat from trees, Farmers are constantly working with large quantities of pesticedes, antibotics(for cattle),heavy machines, and thousands of tonnes of animal waste .. yes that makes for safe and clean eviorment NOT!!!!

Farming is way up toward the top of the list of dangerous professions. It's far more dangerous than being a cop or fireman. I do respect cops, but I really don't see why we have long processions and big headlines when a policeman gets killed, and completely ignore the family of a farmer (who makes little money and feeds the world) who gets crushed in or under or through a whirling, thrashing ag machine.

Maybe it's because it happens so frequently?

I used to think I was a positively brilliant man who could do anything until I bought a small hobby farm a few years ago. Anybody who thinks "agrarian" means simple-minded simply doesn't know beans about farming.

The range of knowledge, skills and activities I needed to perfect seem more to me like running a space program than running a farm.

...Except that people who run space programs don't also have to be good businessmen.

I have learned immense respect for people in the Ag. industry. My life designing medical equipment seems like Kindergarten to me now.

My boss is an Ag Engineering graduate, with an Automotive MSc. He worked in Engine Design at Austin Rover, and then at Aston Martin, leaving when the blue oval took over. He now runs the New Product Development team at an automotive (Heavy Duty Diesel) emissions control company.

I asked him, he said he was never much interested in the plant & animal husbandry aspects; the water & soil stuff was only of interest in that it provided the inputs to plough design...

It actually sounds more useful than my straight mech eng degree!

Ag Engineer in California deals mostly with farm mechanical engineering and water resource division of Civil Engineering. They can not stamp any regualtory submittals as the state only recognizes geolgist and civil engineers for this. They typically, do not deal with any structural designs, as building officials do not recognize their stamp. There are actually only 3 engineering practices fully protected in California-Civil, Mechanical, and Electrical; and Civil has an over-arching authority encompassing all other practices (though this can lead to liability, which we do not like). Agricultural Engineers are quite useful for farming, since many areas recognize lower standards for perfomance and less regulation than say a municipality. This means they can design and build more cheaply for the agricultural industry. Agriculture has many legal exclusions that allows them to utilize practices and equipment frowned on, if not illegal, in other industries. Agricultural engineers, therefore, have a good understanding within the broad limitations of their industry. Civils and Mechanicals are more oriented to a higher standard of practice, which cost more and requires more complexity in operational/maintenance skills. In some ways this is beneficial, in other maybe not so beneficial to societies. It, in theory, keeps costs lower for production in the short term. However, in puts society at higher risk in the long term.

Let's set the record straight.

Agricultural Engineers (AE) ARE ENGINEERS with engineering degrees from accredited colleges. AE's can even obtain their Professional Engineer license (PE).

As for farmers trying to call themselves "engineers" to feel more important, what an ignorant statement. I grew up on a farm in a farming community and the only time I heard the word engineer it was preceeded and followed by a string of four-letter words while we tried to repair something that was poorly designed. No farmer I have ever known wants to be refered to as an engineer.

AE's tend to be more hands-on engineers that are well educated in both "hard" and "soft" sciences. They are most of the time not even working for farms. I have an agricultural engineering degree from the Ohio State University College of Engineering (yes I went against my fathers wishes). I design portable shaker screens and rock crushers. The crusher weighs 120,000 lbs , is powered by a 500hp diesel, sits on a tracked undercarriage, and you drive it with a handheld remote. My job has nothing to do with plants or animals. In college I took a wide variety of courses including statics, dynamics, thermodynamics, fluid dynamics, plus many others.

AE's fill a variety of jobs. Some of my classmates are doing design and research work for Caterpillar, Cummins, Ford, and GM to name a couple. Others work for companies that are developing ways to clean up contaminated water and soil. Another is a milk inspector. Another designs utitlity layouts for municipalities and new developments.

Agricultural Engineering is a real engineering discipline.

Why are you so quick to call sombody ignorant when nobody said that farmers "call themselves 'engineers' to feel more important?"

All I meant, in the context where some seemed to denigrate agricultural endeavors, was that I've gained a lot of appreciation for agriculture in general.

I happen to be an engineer who'd like to call himself a farmer; but I just can't until I learn a lot more.

Was this such a bad sentiment deserving an insult?

My apologies andyhorning, that was not aimed at you, and after re-reading Greg G comments I realize that I may have wrongly interpreted his "sanitation engineering" analogy.

After re-reading everything it seems there is a huge difference between what agricultural engineering (maybe even engineering in general) is here in the USA and what it is in other countries.

Well, I'm sorry I was testy, too. It's a shame that humans get so territorial about everything from sports teams to politics to...engineering? Who'd have thought that a bunch of nerds could be so disdainful of another subspeciality?

I hope that discussions like this will soften the divisions. Clearly that's what we need as the lines between physics and biology, psychology and AI (and even Democrat and Republican) disappear.

I was just relating my story of epiphany...while I didn't think I had an arrogance toward agricultural folk, I surely did. And now I bow to those who make the tools, techniques and disciplines that make farming viable in today's wacky world.

Such a beautiful and soulful Epilogue!

An AE is responsible for preventing politicians, legislatures, and executives from, well, has anyone read the national legal requirements for farm workers -

a. potable water must be separated with dual wall containers to prevent physical contact of potable water with ice

b. a bathroom must be physically located within 1000 feet of every worker

They get worse, state highway workers certainly do not comply so why pick on farm workers? Can anyone explain why a farmer on a tractor in a 1000 acre field can't just let the fly fly? Do legals not realize a John is a part of every John Deere? If a John Deere has an air conditioned cab, is not the John Deere cab a legal John?

Perchance the potable water is cooled, why does the legal assume the ice can not potentially be frozen potable water?

Is judicial and legislative practicing efficient time management by overtly protecting the illegals?

The reason we live in a wacky, corrupt, dangerous and, seemingly, increasingly ignorant world is that politicians are running it.

I work in the medical business, where there is one politician and three lawyers per cubic centimeter/second. It's astounding how little doctors have to do with medicine, and how much our design inputs are from a committee in the DC beltway.

So I'm surprised that the farmworker mandate isn't a double-walled, ice-cooled privy on wheels for each worker...and has clap-on/clap-off lights...for a cost-capped price of only six dollars per unit.

This has been a very interesting discussion and close to my heart. I am an electrical engineer with a Masters in AG Eng. I spent the better part of my 30 year carreer researching and developing instruments and processes for measuring and monitoring storages, products, machinery, etc. in an agricultural research institute. The applications required RF, machine vision, robotics, instrumentation, machine design, etomologie, plant physiology, soils, the list goes on since I worked with 40 research scientists who all needed technology to further their research.

The question you pose has been around forever but what I have learned over time is that AG Eng's are much like Industrial Engineers who have a strong background in many fields of engineering. It is very much a hands on discipline and you really have to think outside the box. The comment about the blurring of disciplines is very apt description of what ag eng is all about. You need to understand the underlying principles of the applications/product you are working with and marry that to the underlying principles of in my case electrical engineering principles. In my biased opinion this is one of the better degrees because it goes back to what engineers used to be, generalists with a focus in a specific area but able to apply that knowledge across a broad range of disciplines, ie think out of the box. What I have found is that potential employers don't often get it. When I was job hunting I spoke with recruiters at such companies as Nortel, Zarlink, Alcatel and they would ask what the heck has agriculture got to do with electronics. Well everything! The company I work for now has a product called the Smart Spud which wirelessly measures impacts on potatoes as they go through the process from harvesting to shipping. The process lines can then be adjusted to reduce/remove impact damage We also developed the Crackless Egg. Works like the spud but can also measure pressure the shell is subjected to as it moves from the chicken to your table.

Cool stuff, eh! Sorry for the long response.