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Participant

Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4

Selecting Water Pumps

01/17/2007 10:27 AM

Hi!

To all the rocket scientists out there. I need some help/advise: I need to pump water from a lake approx. 350ft, up a 90 degree incline. Would have to be gas powered or other. No electricity available. Flow rate does not have to be that much

maybe 5 litres/minute. Any thoughts for something under $800/dollars.

Thanks!

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#1

Re: Water Pump Selection help required

01/17/2007 12:28 PM

Some ideas:

The easy solution would be a "trash" pump, but these are usually good for 80' maximum head, not 350'. The 350 feet of head creates a pressure of about 150 psi, so most centrifugal pumps will not work. Two stage and multi stage industrial centrifugal pumps can reach 150 psi, but they are costly. You could also string together several trash pumps -- but again there is the cost -- and you'd be paying for hundreds of times more flow than you need, just to get the pressure.

For something pre-built, easy, and cheap, I'd think a gas engine driven pressure washer would work. A $600 unit would be good for about 2.5 gpm and 2500 psi. You'd need output hose rated for about 200 psi (although the last 100 feet or so could be ordinary garden hose.) I think, but am not sure, that the pumps in these would operate with small suction at the inlet (i.e., would pull up 5 feet from the lake). Some (most?) might have a low pump inlet pressure shutoff -- to prevent you from running the pump dry. You'd need to override that and you'd want to be careful in starting it up to make sure that you don't run it dry. You might need to prime it. You'd want a fairly large low-restriction strainer on the inlet, and probably a foot valve (to prevent water from flowing back into the lake). Ideally, any modifications you make could be undone, so you could still use the machine as a pressure washer.

A hydraulic gear pump is another possibility. For about $150 you can find a pump that will move about 8 gpm or so at pressures much higher than you need. (You'd need to find a gas engine to power it, a coupling, mounting brackets, frame, etc.) (Driving with a v-belt would simplify alignment, probably.) You'd need to contact the manufacturer re suitability for water. You'd need a fine mesh strainer to prevent pump damage. You'd probably need to prime a gear pump if the suction lift is more than a foot or two. If the use is intermittent, you would probably want to dry and lube the pump between uses.

There may be something that is a perfect fit for your application -- I just can't think of it.

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: Water Pump Selection help required

01/17/2007 12:46 PM

Thanks for sharing your ideas!

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Guru

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#5
In reply to #2

Re: Water Pump Selection help required

01/17/2007 11:08 PM

Eddie:

Are you running this full time, or once a day, or just once or twice a week?

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#10
In reply to #5

Re: Water Pump Selection help required

01/18/2007 8:23 AM

Hi!

I am running it to fill a holding tank. So I won't be running it all the time.

Thanks!

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#13
In reply to #10

Re: Water Pump Selection help required

01/18/2007 10:17 AM

More thoughts:

(Combining the ideas of several posts, and still assuming 350 is actual head.)

8 gpm @ 200 psi is essentially 1 HP

1 Hp = about 750 watts

750 watts @ 12 volts = 65 amps

So, if you wanted to fill an 80 gallon tank with a 1 hp pump, you could do so in 10 minutes, or 1/6 hour. If you did this once a day, you'd consume 125 watt hr per day. A 40 watt solar panel could supply 160 watt hr per day. A 65 AH battery would supply enough reserve for several days without sun.

So… a WalMart deep cycle marine battery, a 12 volt 40 watt solar panel and charge regulator, a 1hp dc motor driving a gear or roller pump, and you'd have the major components. Using the electric approach would allow you to control the system from on top of the hill (where the tank would be). The main relay controlling the motor would be located with the motor/battery/solar charger, and control current (milliamps) would flow through 350' of wire (extension cords spliced together, and sealed at the joints, would work). (You'd use all three conductors.) Two float switches (one halfway down the tank, one at the top) would make control automatic. The lower one would energize the relay, which would latch through normally closed contacts on the upper one. When the tank filled, the normally closed contacts on the upper float would open, breaking the latch circuit.

Simple, not too expensive (except for the solar panel) and automatic.

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#7
In reply to #2

Re: Water Pump Selection help required

01/18/2007 4:38 AM

Eddie B:

A very significant point that has not been addressed here specifically, although Blink correctly assumed it is that your pump must be down at the lake!

No pump of any kind can raise water much more than about 28 feet, the absolute theoretical limit being just under 34 feet, since that is the height of water supported by atmospheric pressure.

If you used a jet pump (of the deep well variety) you could have the pump located much higher, with only the jet head down at the lake but that would be very inefficient compared to a pump at the lakeside since you would be circulating some water back and forth to operate the "jet siphon".

You can employ several pumps along the way to keep the pressure down, but the best approach is a single small high pressure pump down at the lake, and a storage tank up at your location if necessary. At those pressures (~180 psi or higher: ~155 psi gravity head plus the whatever friction head you have, which will depend on the length of piping, its diameter and the flow of water) you are looking at a positive displacement or "near positive displacement" pump such as a piston, roller, or perhaps a close coupled turbine pump. A small roller pump is a good choice since it does well at that pressure and low flow requirements, and they are relatively inexpensive. They are typically used for spraying trees and shrubs or for injecting chemicals into the ground for treatment against termites (I have one such pump, it pumps about 1.5 GPM at 300 psi, using a 3.5 HP gas engine.)

Greg

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#3

Re: Selecting Water Pumps

01/17/2007 9:02 PM

Check these Pressure Powered Pumps to be operated with compressed air or steam, but they will not be at your price.

Spirax Sarco, Inc., offers the Pivotrol(R) PTF-HP Pressure Powered Condensate Pump with full warranty coverage at 300 psi operation. The unit is self-contained and self regulated by mechanical controls. Unlike electrically powered condensate pumps, there are no dynamic seals, glands or packings to fail under elevated temperature and pressure.

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: Selecting Water Pumps

01/17/2007 10:54 PM

well, with 350 feet and 10 pounds = 3500/60 =~60 foot pounds/second or about 1/10 HP at 100% efficiency or 1/5 horsepower with a very conservative rating.

Small gas engines are not suited to a continuous task like this. They will fail in short order, say 1 month.

A positive displacement pump, like piston pump or gear pump is what you want here.

I assume this need to run 24/7 for weeks at a time unattended? Or is there an ability to visit, service and fuel the pump daily?

a 24 volt pump of the right size would work...where to get 24 volts? Battery?

A set of two 24 volt truck batteries one at home on charge and one at the site pumping and you swap the batteries each day. 1///5 HP = 150 watts or 6 amps at 24 volts x 24 = 150 amp hour battery needed to last the day.

STarts to become a problem? A small portable generator of 1000 watts that tuns 2-3 hours/day to charge the battery?

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#6
In reply to #4

Re: Selecting Water Pumps

01/18/2007 3:33 AM

You're on the right track.............Use a solar powered charger to keep batteries charged.

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#8

Re: Selecting Water Pumps

01/18/2007 7:19 AM

Looks as though your stuck with an electric pump and some kind of generator/other electricity source.

http://industrial-water-pumps.globalspec.com/SpecSearch/MatchingProducts?Comp=3936&QID=8533950&VID=134989

http://industrial-water-pumps.globalspec.com/SpecSearch/MatchingProducts?Comp=3936&QID=8533950&VID=99786

One other idea if there is a river in or out of the lake people used to "tap" some of the power to pump water to higher levels.

By the way a 90o incline is normally called a cliff .

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#9

Re: Selecting Water Pumps

01/18/2007 8:10 AM

Hi Eddie,

What you dont state clearly is what is the total static height you will be pumping? You are pumping 350', but what part of that is vertical distance vs. horizontal?

You need to pump it 350', but what is the total change in hegiht from the lake to the end of the pipeline? you said a 90" degree incline but this is important.

To answer your question I wil lneed to know. The previous posters were correct IF and only IF you were pumping 350" vertically.

Liam S.

Ie.

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#11

Re: Selecting Water Pumps

01/18/2007 9:31 AM

Man, those were some intersting answers. I wonder how many people just guess on these things? I could write you a novel on the subject, but just answer that last post about actual lift required. If you want water for under 600.00 you are limited on options. Answer the following:

What is actual lift

What is usage from the storage tank

What is the source water

How clean does it have to be

Is this a year round residence

Does it get cold where you are

A few comments: A positive displacement pump like a pressure washer is not really designed for moving volume. These pumps start destroying themselves the minute they are started. If there is any way possible to get electricity down there, that is your best option. There are submersible electrical centrifugal pumps that could handle the 350' (plus liley another 100' in pipe losses) easily. There are pumps close to your price.

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#12
In reply to #11

Re: Selecting Water Pumps

01/18/2007 10:01 AM

The most efficient solution is probably a 220V submersible well pump powered by a gasoline or diesel-powered portable generator. Standard pump and pressure switch controls could then be used to maintain the required volume and pressure in perhaps a bladder type pressure tank.

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#14
In reply to #12

Re: Selecting Water Pumps

01/18/2007 10:18 AM

if you have power at the top you can use a rod driven pump in a pipe.

On a short run you could use nylon rope inside the pipe with a spring to return the cylinder to the bottom

At the top a cyclic mechanism to give the amount of force required by the stroke x bore x 350 feet of pressure. So even a 1" bore 1 foot long would not be out of line and could be made quite simply from on line plans. Take some fiddling, but no power needed at the lake. A rod might last longer than a rope, but 350 feet of nylon 1/8" rope is cheap and it should last a long time with a smooth pipe made of plastic that can tolerate the bottom pressure of 150 PSI, or metal is needed

Oil wells use these.

again, no freezing allowed.

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Participant

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#17
In reply to #12

Re: Selecting Water Pumps

09/05/2008 10:25 PM

hi,

Glad to see you

we are one specifical manufacture company about the water pump.

If you are interest in it, please visit www.wxkadl.com

or http://www.made-in-china/showroom/wuxikaiaopower

Jack Stapleton

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#15

Re: Selecting Water Pumps

01/18/2007 7:41 PM

Since you are dealing with a vertical lift:

A gasoline powered reciprocating pump jack will give you all the water you need and then some. pump jacks are used in combination with wind mills when no wind is available and they have been in use for over 175 years in areas of the world where there is no electricity.

email me off the board and I can help you. I am certified water well driller and pump installer. lzaharis@lightlink.com

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#16

Re: Selecting Water Pumps

01/18/2007 10:49 PM

As missed or possibly assumed wrong by many of us but pointed out by some, you didn't specify the actual lift height as such: "350', up a 90° incline" which implies a 350' lift but could mean that the run is 350', with part of it vertical.

The lifting "piston with a flap valve" technique pointed out by aurizon (#14) and mtararat (#15) is a good one: tried and true, with many possibilities for your application. A further advantage is that no "expensive" pumps or motors are at lakeside where they could be damaged or stolen by miscreants.

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Users who posted comments:

Anonymous Poster (1); askjoet (1); aurizon (2); Blink (3); Bluestone (1); ducon (1); Eddie B (2); generator-china (1); Greg G (2); mtararat (1); OLD F**T (1); Randall (1)

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