Forgotten or forbidden cure for tuberculosis?

Please study up on such things as anecdotal evidence, double-blind clinical trials, and statistics.

Watercress is just a veggie. I doubt that it is banned anywhere. However, advertising unproven effects might (and probably should) be forbidden.

If you think there could be something to this (which might be conceivable), then do a proper study, properly reviewed.

Related topics: spontaneous remission of diseases; fallacy of post hoc ergo propter hoc.

sir; PR was and has been a testing ground for experimental drugs during the '50s and '60s and many suffered the negative consequences...if anyone knows the pros and cons of experimental drugs that have made many millions of dollars for US corporations it's the people of PR. The facts are in; I just want to know if they (watercress) were ever really used, processed, synthesized or included in any form or manner in medicine????

Anger At Island's 'Pill' Test Lingers

Test trials of Agent Orange were carried out in Puerto Rico.

These are troubling (or even outraging) issues, too, of an ethical nature.

I was referring to some different issues, of an informational or experimental design nature.

These different concerns can range from unrelated to significantly overlapping.

Artsmith, fellow Canuck ... and everone ele who reads this ...

Have you got any other info re. using watercress (or anything) else against TB? FOr that matter, if you know of any other 'nutritional' approaches to to fighting diseases and parasitic infestations, especially in developing countries, I'm all ears.

Also, could you let me know where I can find info concerning the above?

Cheers! DZ

My e-mail: stratos@spp-consultants.com

DreadZontar,

TB is notoriously difficult to treat and since it is (fortunately) rare I have no personal experience with it. The watercress tradition is reported in the south. The abstract linked above includes other plants we consider as foods - olive, citrus etc. and I'm sure there are reports from southern sources as to how they are used as a treatment or care for persons with TB. For ethnobotanical references, you might try Duke's database.

Assays, animal experiments, toxicity reports, human trials if they exist and other peer-reviewed studies can be searched free on the internet at PubMed. I also found the Current Contents database to be a valuable source, but it isn't free so I don't have access. There are many (mostly proprietary) databases out there.. I can't comment since I have neer had the access.

If you search "antimycobacterial natural products" at PubMed you'll get 158 hits. Then don't forget to search the product in question with "toxicity". Poison will kill TB in a petri dish, and the patient too, the assays for toxicity have to be searched separately.

For a 'Canadian wild' take on TB, check out the Scottish bog stuff assay. On a cursory glance, the less toxic more foodlike substances on the list are edible mushrooms! Bay bolete and Slippery Jack, a safer bet than lichens any day - although I have never tried an alcoholic extract of em...

The anti-inflammatory mainstay that we use with specific antiviral or antibacterial treatment is a 40% (vodka) tincture of Allheal flower spikes (Prunella vulgaris). Ursolic acid is the key anti-inflammatory constituent extracted in 40% (not in pure alcohol nor in pure water) along with rosmarinic acid, etc. and since it is reported anti-tubercular as well - bonus choice for a TB treatment. Prunella vulgaris has global distribution, therefore available in the 3rd world/African context that you mentioned, and tincture can be made as long as vodka isn't banned .

(I can tell from your enthusiasm that you are probably not up to speed on the grim natural products scene here in Canada, where the Harpoon govt would like to legislate a ban on homemade stuff including tea, jam and pickles .. )

Unfortunately, there is a very good reason for forgetting about watercress as a treatment for tuberculosis, namely that it does not work. The paper you quote dates from 2006 and was published in a journal which is not exactly mainstream medicine. It describes a laboratory experiment without any reference to bactericidal activity in humans, and it has never been followed up by any other research group.

hey phph,

the paper I quoted is from PubMed at the National Library of Medicine - Phytotherapy Research is a reputable peer reviewed scientific journal. 2006 is quite recent, from my pov. Your criticism is ignorant nonsense afaict.

please quote me the equivalent professional literature that demonstrates watercress "does not work", and on which you base your statement.

Artsmith, let us begin from the standpoint that I am medically qualified, that I have practised medicine for nearly 40 years, that I have a training in research methods, and that I have treated cases of tuberculosis. That puts me in a better position to comment than either you or most people on this forum. Pubmed is a repository for medical journals, yes. Phytotherapy Research is a mainstream medical journal, no. The number of times one of its papers gets cited elsewhere is tiny, see

http://www.scimagojr.com/journalsearch.php?q=16573&tip=sid&clean=0.

Papers from mainstream medical journals such as the New England Journal of Medicine or the Lancet get cited hundreds of thousands of times. If you read the whole paper, as I have done, you will find that the concentrations of plant extract required to prevent mycobacterial growth were orders of magnitude greater than the concentrations of standard antituberculous drugs, indicating that their activity is pretty feeble, and raising the question of what size a dose of watercress would have to be in order to get a sensible concentration in the bloodstream.

I will stand by what I say, that watercress is not a sensible treatment for TB, and you may withdraw your suggestion that my "criticism is ignorant nonsense".

I would not want to discourage a medically qualified, experienced practitioner from participating in this discussion in any way, so I hope you are not offended by my response.

However, as a biologist also educated in research methods, and as a natural products developer with a long term focus on antimicrobial treatments, I still consider your comments to be ignorant and a demonstration of the bias towards "forgetting and forbidding" which was the subject of the OP. The criticism that the journal is not "mainstream" reading for a physician is exactly the topic, not the reason to dismiss it. We are discussing the fact that it is not mainstream, here in this thread.

Your comparison of the number of citations of Phytotherapy Research to those of the NEJM or Lancet is irrelevant. You know as well as I do, that the audience for the research is completely different. Phytotherapy Research contains basic research on ethnobotanical sources, which is then a source for private pharmaceutical R & D. By the time a new drug candidate has been developed and patented, and begins to see publication, it has been given a number or name and there is often no reference to the natural product on which it is based. Citations of the kind would be contrary to proprietary interests.

Secondly your comment about dosage shows your ignorance of drug design issues for natural products - no blame intended. In my opinion and in my experience with effective antiviral and antibacterial treatments, the standard model of pharmaceutical treatment is broken. Large doses of pure (single molecule) drugs flooding the system and supplanting the natural immune response is a model that is contrary to nature's economy, where small amounts of the right things taken together are effective, and this reflects the natural economics of medicinal plant/animal coevolution. If this is a new idea to you, I invite you to stop and think about it.

I had a cursory glance at the MIC figures for antimycobacterials, and I see that fungal derivatives (as usual) have MIC as low as or lower than 1 micg/ml compared with 100 mic/ml for the watercress, as you pointed out. They are the preferred source of antibiotic drugs, but also tend to be far more toxic to the human cells - or am I the only one who has been sickened by "standard" antibiotic fare in a "sensible concentration"? I don't have a problem with the MIC of the watercress. Neither do the German researchers in the clinical trial linked below, where the watercress product was as effective as standard antibiotics for those other (non-TB) infections. In fact, I see that the MIC of the active constituents is highly variable depending on pH, one of the factors that should be taken into consideration when designing a product, as I indicated to DreadZontar.

I would be interested in hearing about your experience treating TB. My parents' generation grew up in dread of this disease and many were affected, so I have heard stories. None of the research we are discussing was available in those days.

As I stated elsewhere, I would not personally expect to successfully treat TB (or flu, or mono, or pneumonia...etc) without some combination of a specific antimicrobial and a complementary treatment for inflammation. Are you familiar with the work of JM Gwaltney? Very insightful, extensive publications, perhaps mainstream.

Artsmith, you say "I would not want to discourage a medically qualified, experienced practitioner from participating in this discussion in any way, so I hope you are not offended by my response. However, as a biologist also educated in research methods, and as a natural products developer with a long term focus on antimicrobial treatments, I still consider your comments to be ignorant and a demonstration of the bias towards "forgetting and forbidding" which was the subject of the OP. The criticism that the journal is not "mainstream" reading for a physician is exactly the topic, not the reason to dismiss it.We are discussing the fact that it is not mainstream, here in this thread."

I have treated TB patients. I bore a responsibility for curing their disease without causing harm from side-effects. You do not have that (sometimes terrifying) responsibility. I do not care whether the drugs I use are animal, vegetable or mineral in origin, as long as they are demonstrated to be effective and safe. A good many of them are indeed of vegetable origin, but their safety and effectiveness are proven. Now your watercress falls into neither category, and the single paper with which you are attempting to change the world does nothing to change that fact. If you are so sure of yourself why do you not write a letter to a proper mainstream medical journal?

The reason why doctors do not use watercress as a treatment for TB is that it has not been demonstrated to work. End of story. If you wish to make money flogging watercress extract to the gullible it is your choice and their wallet.

Hi. phph.

Far from me to be naive about many things, but it is true that I know nothing about 'natural' remedies to disease of afflictions.

That being said, I'm all ears ... have you any recommendations to make re. common developing-world diseases, etc.? I've just read an article in Scientific American, "A plan to defeat neglected tropical diseases". The diseases in question are already parasitic ones (worms and such) that can be cured rapidly by simple medications. Anything along those lines and also 'natural' remedies I'd like to know about, if you can spare the time. No hurry, this is a long-term thing for me ...

One thing that I'm kicking around in my head is a dual approach. Fast-acting medication could solve acute cases, and chronic, recurring, or reinfection ones could be fought with natural stuff that could be grown/processed/whatever locally. The latter, if not already being done in a given place, would involve education, habit-changing, etc., but again this is a long-term thing for me.

All thoughts and help are appreciated. Cheers!

DZ

Hi,

I would like to help, but it does have to be from the standpoint of a traditional physician who has to be aware of the sometimes very real dangers of herbal remedies, either self-prescribed or administered by practitioners with no medical qualifications. A classic example is St Johns Wort, with the following warnings:"Avoid the following substances when using St.-John's-wort: Amino acids tryptophan and tyrosine; amphetamines; asthma inhalants; beer, coffee, wine; chocolate, fava beans, salami, smoked or pickled foods, and yogurt; cold or hay fever medicines; diet pills; narcotics; nasal decongestants. They all contain chemicals that react adversely to hypericin, causing high blood pressure and nausea. Avoid exposure to the sun during treatment, it can cause heightened sun sensitivity when taken in large amounts."

The contents of Chinese medicines are sometimes scary, and what African witch doctors get up to sometimes does not bear repetition. However, my garden is filled with herbs which have been used in medicine, to remind me of a long tradition.

Your suggestion of one treatment for an acute condition and another for the chronic situation is reasonable, and is already practised by regular physicians for some conditions. As for herbs in parasitic conditions, I can refer you to

http://www.herbalremediesinfo.com/Parasites.html

where you will note that Artemisia extracts can be used to treat malaria. This is a particularly good example of what I mean. Artemesinin, properly prepared by a mainstream drug company and properly researched by mainstream doctors, is proving valuable in a combination therapy (note, not simply other herbs) to treat resistant malaria.

GA. The system is apparently overloaded right now and not accepting votes. This has happened before and is a major glitch.

I forgot to add ... Phph, Artsmith: if you want, I can send you a scanned copy of the Scientific American article that I've mentioned above. And of course, everyone else is welcome to it, too.

Send me your e-mails: stratos@spp-consultants.com

Cheers! DZ

phph001, you were really cranky when you wrote that guff. Where did you get the nonsense that I want to "change the world with one paper" or "flog watercress extract to the gullible"???????? Hogwash. I'm not selling anything here, but I'm starting to wonder if you are.

It happens that I have literature search skills and understanding of the subject matter or terms in this kind of research, and if time is granted, the ability to contribute to this forum a few links to scientific work that may further someone in answering their questions. I do so when I have the time, because it pleases me morally to do so. I gain nothing from it materially or personally, other than satisfying my personal moral inclinations.

I have no stake in this that would prompt me to take time out from my present business to "write a letter" to a mainstream journal. Get a grip. This is a public forum here, it's casual discussion, and the better posts back up their position with some scientific links. I am here for recreational reasons and love of learning, myself.

Please rethink your response, I will not hold it against you that you flamed me this time. But really. You're claiming that watercress is neither safe nor effective, but you're not providing a shred of evidence. Where are the links to research supporting those views?

If you really are a doctor, at least, tell us a scary story about your personal experience of the dreaded watercress! (Am I making you grumpy? Relaaaaax. )

Artsmith,

"I have no stake in this that would prompt me to take time out from my present business to "write a letter" to a mainstream journal. " means "I do not know anything that would prompt anyone with a medical qualification to take an interest in watercress. My bluff has been called"

"Get a grip." I already have.

"This is a public forum here, it's casual discussion, and the better posts back up their position with some scientific links." The whole point is that there are no scientific papers that show that watercress cures TB in humans, no papers that show that watercress ingestion reduces the incidence of TB in a human population, indeed no papers that show ingesting watercress has any specific human health benefit at all. How much more lack of evidence do you want?

It is up to you to provide the evidence, not for me to manage patients with useless treatments on your say-so.

Nobody asked you to manage anything on my say-so, and you don't have any patients to worry about because you are not a docor, phph whatever, I think you're a fake, buddy. You are here to make trouble on some corporate agenda, and you're no MD.

"Get a grip" you have got your friends to come and vote GA for your crap answers. hurrah. that's been seen before.

I answered the OP's question about watercress with relevant scientific data. AFAIK that's the point of the forum,

I'm not sucking on watercress here. Don't have any myself in fact. Your slurs on my character and agenda are competely invented by yourself. THERE's NO WATERCRESS IN MY HOME! NOT ON MY AGENDA AT ALL!

If there's a personal medication or strategy that you want to blast here it's my suggestion that anti-inflammatory treatments should be used in conjunction with antivirals/antimicrobials.

So PLEASE PHPH1001 WOULD YOU CRAP ME OUT ABOUT MY PERSONAL AGENDA AND NOT ABOUT THE OP QUESTION WHICH I ENDEAVORED TO ANSWER.

PLEASE MAKE YOUR PERSONAL ATTACKS ON THE SUGGESTION THAT, AS PER THE GENERAL COMMENTS IN THE ABSRACT OF GM CWALTNEY's ARTICLE, AN ANTI-INFLAMMATORY TREATMENT SHOULD BE USED WITH A SPECIFIC ANTIVIRAL. If you really want to pretend you're an MD.

Those are all the personal insights I contributed to this forum, and if you have anything to contradict it I would learn and benefit, so hale forth.

And don't imagine you will foist a bunch of crap here because you claim to have an MD "phph001". Prove your scientific basis or take your scorn. I know who you are.

Arrogance, the main reason I gave up traditional western medicine 20 years ago while I was still healthy, moved to altermnatives, and now look, act, & feel much younger than my peers.

Please entertain the illusion to the extent which a conclusion can be made of ineffectiveness without the research you claim hasn't been conducted?

The elephant in the room is why hasn't the research been done? The quality of peoples lives are at stake even some relief would be heartily welcomed by the afflicted; is there a monetary reason for disallowing a vegetable substance to be used in treatment?

This study dated 2008:

The study evaluated the antimycobacterial activity of nine plants used in Mexican traditional medicine to treat tuberculosis and other respiratory diseases. Nasturtium officinale (watercress) showed the best activity against the sensitive Mycobacterium tuberculosis. - Camacho-Corona Mdel R, et al. Activity against drug resistant-tuberculosis strains of plants used in Mexican traditional medicine to treat tuberculosis and other respiratory diseases. Phytother Res 22(1):82-5, Jan 2008 http://healthydoses.wordpress.com/2008/05/08/watercress/

Bwire .. Thanks for the links!

I much appreciate this. I'll be discussing this with my partner to see if there's any potential for getting watercress into Mali and possibly Burkina Faso. At the very worst, it could serve as a good source of nutrition out there.

Cheers!

DZ

P.S. For some reason, I can't reply to your CR4 e-mail because CR4 says that your user name doesn't exist. Hence why I'm messaging you through here.

At the very worst, it could serve as a good source of nutrition out there.

DreadZontar,

Before you jump to conclusions, take an expert look at what you're doing.

- you can't ship it fresh, so it would have to be locally grown or pickled

- clinical trials in Germany show synergy with horseradish for some other antimicrobial applications. If you're going to make pickles, a little horseradish might do well in the recipe for max benefit. The active antimicrobial compounds in both watercress and horseradish are the isothiocyanates. Make sure your recipe is appropriate to conserve them and maximize the product's benefit.

- Is watercress (Nasturtium officinale) one of the invasive aquatic species that would need controlling in the Mali ecosystem? Maybe not, but you'd certainly want to know before considering cultivation on site. Oops, in fact a quick search shows it is an invasive species. You will have to send pickles - or maybe it's already a weed in Mali. You need to know this before you consider shipping any kind of product! If there is a local source, education on how to prepare and use the resource is the best strategy.

- There is some research on African plant species in the literature list I cited to you. Are these species local to Mali? Are there other unstudied species locally that are deserving of attention? Who will fund research on the local species, which could be prepared by the locals for their needs.

here is a large clinical trial in Germany, on a herbal drug made from nasturtium/horseradish for acute sinusitis, acute bronchitis, and acute urinary tract infection: conclusions: as effective as antibiotics and better safety profile.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17515295?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=29

here is one of the studies involving plants native to Africa:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18412151?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=20

Artsmith ... thanks for the input.

I'd read in Wikipedia that watercress is an invasive species in the North American Great Lakes, so I was already thinking about having to contain it. That might not be a problem if it's grown hydroponically, for example, but you never know ... if someone throws a half-eaten leaf into a river, will it invade? I'll be looking into that (with experts) if this gets that far.

As concerns the 'getting wtaercress out there' part ... who knows, perhaps something could be extracted or the watercress powdered, and made into pill form. I'll have to look into that, too. That, plus whether pills could be manufactured thereabouts to get an industry going, who knows.

Thanks for all your ideas, CR4ers. I knew about the invasiveness of watercress, but generally it's a good idea to assume that I know little about this kind of stuff at present (I'm an electrical engineer / energy-technology consultant), but I do know experts who can get me on the right track. By all means, feel free to bring up stuff for me to consider and be aware of.

Cheers, all!
DZ

Yow ... YOW!!!

I'm going to talk about this to one of my colleagues. He's spent 20-odd years in Mali and Burkina Faso, and I'm working with him to develop business opportunities over there (I'm Canadian).

This watercress (and other) treatment might be a winner .. if not in Mali and BF, certainly elsewhere!

Thanks! This is what CR4 is all about ...

DZ

Well following the positive replies early on, and being a great cynic, doubting the honesty of the medical and BiG PHARM Industry, working in 3rd world countries, knowing USA Doctors who have also worked in the 3rd world, talking to them, and studying other countries medical philosophy, I would venture to say it was swept under the rug because it was not profitable for the Industry, the Gov, the Lobbyists,and the "pollutiticians" that have weaseled their way into office.