Slow Cranking Flathead

It would help a lot if we knew the make and model of the vehicle and where on the planet you are.

Can't really help you till you give us at least a little more information.

I'll take a stab at the second question: Local Yellow Pages. Automotive electric shop.

Battery is fairly new checked charge is 100%, the cable from the starting solenoid looks original with minor cloths fretting on the sides, cant tell the age of the solenoid,

system was converted to neg ground but not by me.

while cranking I could not determine if the arc I heard was in the cab or outside under the hood I had the hood up.

The vehicle is a 1948 ford F1 with alot of the original wiring still installed.

I plan on checking for voltage between to solenoid post from the battery to the starter side of the solenoid while the key is in the on position and then also pushing the start button while reading the volt meter.

otherwise I will look at the porcelain block behind and under the battery support, it may be the fusible link that may have burned.

Basically the slow cranking related apart from the terminal voltage of the battery, it is related to the Specific Gravity of the battery which should be a minimum of 1220.The battery should be inspected for the SG with a suitable Hydro meter.Not necessasry if the voltage is showing full and the SG need to be upto the satisfactory level. Due to internal resistance of the battery such as sulfation and buckling etc.like battery interal problems the battery cannot deliver enough power to crank the engine upto the firing speed. It is threfore advised to check the SG of the each cell of the battery.

Thank U

CVS Murthy

If I may add my 2cents worth.

It might be time to give the Ol' girl a birthday, and start replacing some of the "tired" wiring. Wiring does get old and becomes resistive, especially when dealing with high DC currents.

I concur that cleanliness of battery terminations are very important on 6volt systems. The arc noise you heard was probably the electrons trying to find a way through the resistance created by verdigris and corrosion on the terminals associated with the starting circuit.

If you want to retain the 6 volt electrics then you will have to go through and clean up or replace all the terminations. As well as replacing the cables.

It will help if to have a suitable heavy cable/strap from the engine to the Chassis/battery. The Solenoid may have burnt contacts from cranking the motor for the past 60years, time for a new one. That may be problematic as I haven't seen any new 6 volt ones for years. But I'm sure there are speciality shops in the U.S. that do re-pro stuff.

The thing with 6 volt systems is that it doesn't take much to stop it working because of the high (proportionately)current at the low voltage used to do anything and any resistance becomes an issue. Which means Ohms law (and Murphy's for that matter) works overtime. Cable size is critical, what is choice for a 12Volt system is not adequate for a 6volt system.

Conversion to 12volt is easy in so far as there is quite a lot of conversion stuff available from later model flathead fords in the way of generators, wiper motors, etc.

I did a 6/12volt conversion on a "51 Chev ute, and that was pretty painless (except the change from left to right hand drive and the owners insistence of using a preformed wiring harness for LHD!)I also converted a 58 VW Kombi from 6 to 12volt, afterwards it started first time everytime and I could see with the headlights at night.

As a thought that "ceramic" thing may be a ballast resistor for the coil and it will have heavyish wires going to and from it and be connected to the starter solenoid so it gets bypassed during starting.

Hope that helps.

"Heard a ark or short occur and lost everything..."

Lots of juice going to ground somewhere. Most likely, there will be a burned wire where this happened. Good chance of ozone odor as well, if the engine compartment is clean enough.

Since you lost everything, not just the starter circuit, the problem area is going to be close (electrically) to the battery. Trace positive wire from the battery, check voltage at each connection with respect to ground. It seems unlikely that a fried starter solenoid would cause you to lose your lights and horn, since it is only in circuit when the starter button is pressed. The ceramic-looking thing with heavy gage wires going to it- is one of the wires connected directly to the battery terminal? If so, you most likely should have 6 volts on both sides of this device...

If the battery is not discharging over night, then you have an open circuit somewhere. If the battery will not hold a charge overnight (assuming it is good), then you most likely have a ground fault somewhere. An open circuit can be much easier to find than a ground fault...

if you find what burned out and it works use a 8volt battey are use a 12 to 6 converter from your 12 battery to all the small wires that was on battery hot post truck for lights and your dash put new battery and charging system run hot from charge wire strat to battery 12 and get the 12 volt starter if you do it right all lights and dash will work on 6 volt just starter and charging system and your battery will be 12 volt

I use the 8 volt battery on my 6 volt vw it works great its been like that from 1982 on all is still a 6 volt system and it spin better like this

From Tim Hawley Master Mech.

A 6 volt system is ok.

First disconnect the battery cables. Check continuity cross your fuse breaker. If there is no resistance replace with new. Do not try the starter after replacement, this will only cause the breaker to fail again. There is an other component that is pulling a heavy current load. Remove starter and take it to a local starter rebuild facility. There are a few still in the detroit area that rebuid 6 volt starters and generators. Have it inspected. The starter solenoid may be damaged as well.

It can be checked using a 6 volt battery charger or the local starter rebuild facility should be able to check it for a small fee. Some battery chargers can be purchased with a 6 or 12 volt output switching circuit.

Solenoid Test:

Ground the negitive terminal from the power source to the solenoid metal support.

Connect the positive to the original battery lug. Turn on the power source on and check the voltage output of the feed wire originally connected to the starter. If there is 6 volts output the solenoid is most likely good and was not damaged during the starter current over load.

Good luck

Since the arc noise occcured while cranking, and then everything went dead, check for a broken, loose,or corroded ground connection from frame to engine,and from battery to engine/frame.If all cables are new and clean and connections are tight, physcially trace the positive wire to the starter, and inspect the full length.You will probably find a loose or broken connection.Do the same with the ground wire.Make sure the ground wire is at least a #6 guage or larger, and is connected mechanically close to the starter, for this is your largest load on the system.Sounds like the heavy current from the starter burned through a small conductor ground from engine to frame or to battery.

I've converted many an old Ford. I'm betting your starter solenoid just popped. If you have trouble locating 6 volt parts, Speedway Motors in Lincoln Nebraska has Flathead parts (even a 6volt alternator). You have a great opportunity here to convert to 12volt if that is the direction you plan to go. I'm driving a '53 F100 that I converted over. It still has the 6volt starter in it. It starts everytime (even in the -11 degree temps we just had) You just don't want to crank on it for long intervals. I just changed all of the lites, (headlights, dash and tail lites) changed to a 1wire 12v alternator, installed a 12volt horn relay (56 and up Fords) and a "Runtz" voltage reducer (from www.SpeedwayMotors.com ) part#910-64101 for the gauges. Good Luck with your project!

thanks much, I am going to convert to 12 volt plus rewire the old girl!

Drop me an e-mail if you ever need any old ford parts. Or if your looking for info on old Fords. I'd rather drive one of my all steel rigs than the plastic ones they make today. rwalters@southslope.net

From: Tim Hawley Master Mech.

It will not be factory and will be worth less money

It's you choice.

Tim -- I can't tell what part of the country you are from; but in most places in the US that I'm familiar with an old 6 cylinder Ford truck of any kind better be in pristine near museum condition to have its value diminished by a 12 volt conversion that is anywhere near being neatly done. Like don't torch a hole in the firewall to fit a different battery in.

In his later post the OP mentions some modifications to wiring under the dash. That alone could easily knock a couple of thou. off the value of a museum piece. I don't think that is what we're dealing with here.

Frankly, I wouldn't discourage Flaresideone in doing the 12 volt conversion if he feels good about doing the work and investing in a new charging system. In the years around 1949-50 Ford went from wide v-belts to narrow v-belts on the engine accessories. Implementation on trucks and industrial engines was pretty scattered and just knowing the model is no guarantee. His 48 truck could have had a later year engine put in it. If it has wide belts then finding an alternator to fit might get pricey.

I know Flathead V-8's pretty well but not so the sixes. Back in my archives I do have a dandy little "H" model 6 that came out of a 67,000 mile 48 pickup a few years ago and is slated for a future rat rod project. It has an OEM looking alternator on it and the whole setup uses a 7/8 inch wide belt. Mine could be a real oddball. When I got it I figured I'd just deal with it later and paid little attention. Examples of oddball pulley setups abound on truck and industrial engines.

The one thing I'd like to mention here is that before hitting the truck's system with 12 volts or even 8 volts he should check the headlights and make sure they are not connected. If the truck has an original factory 6 volt sealed beam headlight, the one without the 3 little nubbins that the modern headlight aiming tools rest on, then the sealed beam itself may have some collector value. These lights are really rare these days. The same goes for an original 6 volt factory radio, although most trucks didn't have such luxuries in those days.

Ed Weldon

From: Tim Hawley Master Mech.

To: Tom Weldon,

Excellent points you are making. In order to keep the vintage look as far as the head lamps, blinkers, tail-light's radio Instrument panel and so on... all of the bulbs and sockets must be compatible to a 12 volt system. Also the original alternator, sorry generator will have to be replaced with a solid-state alternator. Also to switch over from start to run regulator field circuit has to be thought out as well. The ignition coil will require replacement and distributor points and spark plugs should be upgraded as well.

The more money and changes that are made, the less value the vintage vehicle is worth on the market if the vintage look is not maintained.

Best Regards

GA Bob -- In most cases this diagnostic would catch a problem. But there is a subtle clue in the OP that suggests the general approach I suggested before but didn't explain very well. The audible snap is a sure clue to a conductive path with too much resistance and some tendency to misbehave intermitantly.

I believe the right test is to measure voltage drops as you suggested (not resistance like I mentioned before) at each connection WITH THE ENGINE CRANKING AND FULL CURRENT FLOWING THROUGH THE CONNECTION. Resistance is tough to measure at low fractions of an ohm even with a high quality DVM. A 1 or 1-1/2 volt drop at several hundred amps is a lot of "juice" lost. You can catch that with the cheapest analog meter if that's all you have.

Side note here if you don't have a voltmeter; if you wire up a small 6 volt bulb and socket with a couple of wires and contact probes you can use that to check voltage drops down to maybe 1-1/2 or 2 volts at which point the filament in the bulb will be barely glowing. Set this little test lamp up and calibrate your eyes and brain with a stack of flashlight batteries to test it at increments 1-1/2 volts, 3 volts and 4-1/2 volts. This tool and some understanding of basic automotive electrical circuits will give you a great "on the road" diagnostic capability. Put your bulb and socket inside a small clear plastic protective container, seal the wires with some silicone caulk and it will be ready to bounce around in the glove box or trunk.

You can also do this with 12 volt bulbs for later model vehicles although the technique is less useful with all the contacts buried in modern insulated electrical connectors.

As another suggested if the trouble is at the contacts inside that old Ford solenoid or within the starter itself cleaning the contact surfaces won't be so easy.

If that old Ford starter solenoid is the one with the manual push button on the top and it's still OK by all means keep it. Even if you convert to 12 volts. Not having to go around the door to hit a starter button in the dashboard while doing a tuneup is a very nice convenience. On the other hand if the solenoid has been getting rained on for a few years there could be corrosion on the contacts inside. That's the downside of that old design.

Ed Weldon

Ed:

I also thought of using a spare 6 volt bulb which I plan on making up, due to the system being totally out I cannot crank the engine at this time.

Also looking into rewiring the whole truck.

Looking under the dash I found several circuits were rewired with in-line fuses, after checking all the elements I will start with current across the solenoid, this truck has been in a garage for many years and other than a little rust down on the frame and one spot on the floor board the contacts look pretty clean.

Thanks

Flaresideone

Mike

Thanks. I have not seen the light bulb used that way in years. An old boss used to use 12 volt bulbs on 6 volt systems, and 24 volt on 12. He said it was easier on the eyes to see differences. I had not thought about him in a long time. I sure miss him.

To all

I am talking to Ron Francis wiring harness company to go over the correct way to convert to 12 volt. the truck is not a show piece but I want to enjoy the ability to open the garage and know it will start, the state of Pennsylvania's registration review approved it for antique and they can be tuff, yes its all original lights, tail lights working radio etc. And Ron Francis company is five minutes from where I work.

Hopefully next couple of weeks when I finish installing the master cylinder and bleeding the brakes I will start to investigate the starting issues, I greatly appreciate all the input because the electrical side of things is my weaknees.

Thanks again

Mike( flaresideone)

Although I have never dealt with Ron Francis, they seem to be very well liked in the world of Hot Rods, and Street Rods. They will probably pinpoint your problem for you, if you can get it to them.