Previous in Forum: Flue Gas Stack Material   Next in Forum: SS 304 magnet or not?
Close
Close
Close
22 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Anonymous Poster

Heat Treatment Processes

03/22/2010 6:23 AM

Hi all, I am a bit confused about the different stages during the heat treatment of a material (recovery, recrystalization and grain growth) and I was wondering if anyone knows of any good sites which have a nice explaination of the heat treatment processes?

I want to know how are the dislocations removed during recovery stage, what are the temperature that seperate these 3 stages, the grain size difference between austenite, ferrite and martensite etc...

Thanks!

Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42355
Good Answers: 1693
#1

Re: About the Heat Treatment Processes

03/22/2010 8:58 AM

Start here:

Heat treatment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Then, check other web sites as required. Then maybe you will have specific questions.

Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Piping Design Engineering - Retired Piper

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Bayonet Point, Florida
Posts: 635
Good Answers: 61
#2

Re: About the Heat Treatment Processes

03/22/2010 2:50 PM

Please check out the following link:

http://www.esabna.com/us/en/education/knowledge/weldinginspection/What-The-Welding-Inspector-Should-Know-About-Preheating-And-Postweld-Heat-Treatment.cfm

Good reading on the subject of PWHT

__________________
Do it once and do it right
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: "Dancing over the abyss."
Posts: 4884
Good Answers: 243
#3

Re: Heat Treatment Processes

03/22/2010 11:21 PM

these links kind of miss your query. Heat treatment is a code word that means diffeerent things to different folks, even the folks at wiki. At first the added energy allows theintracrystalline stresses to relieve; added energy allows the material to change phase, and finally additional energy allows these new crystals to grow. The amount of energy/ temperature varies per material and amount of cold work. milo

__________________
People say between two opposed opinions the truth lies in the middle. Not at all! Between them lies the problem, what is unseeable,eternally active life, contemplated in repose. Goethe
Reply
4
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: "Dancing over the abyss."
Posts: 4884
Good Answers: 243
#9
In reply to #3

Re: Heat Treatment Processes

03/23/2010 10:23 AM

OK. Here's the scoop.

(Long boring dissertaion on how to erase the effects of cold work by applying thermal energy, which we call annealing. Ok to skip if you aren't the original poster.)

You are asking about what happens not during heat treatment (what we in industry mean by heat treatment which is quench and tempering) but about the annealing of cold worked metals.

In cold working of metals there is a limit to how much plastic deformation can be acheived before the work piece fractures. You work it too much and it breaks. thats how a lot of us break a piece of wire by repeated bending, bending, bending until it breaks.

If we apply heat to the workpiece before we reach this limit, the material can be restored to the condition it had prior to being cold worked. So this thermal treatment (which we are going to call an anneal, even though it may also be called a stress relief commercially) acts as an eraser of the results of cold work.

This then allows us to perform additional cold work.

Here's what is going on that makes that happen, checked against my notes from back in the day when "I are the plant metallurgist." we cold worked steel bars to get them to size by cold drawing; if we exceeded the plastic limit we could get internal ruptures in the bars which would spoil someone's day if they showed up in our customers Tractor Power Take Off or Camshaft, Drive shaft, carburetor shaftbeater bar in vacuum cleaner or whatever...)

At the crystal level, Cold work creates lattice defects (dislocations) which increase the energy of the structure. The material wants to recover to its lower energy condition, but cannot because these defects have locked in the stresses.

If you were to take hardness tests over time you would plot out a backwards sigmoid curve, with the top level portion being recovery. The hardness remains constant (or may increase slightly) as the thermal activation from our stress relief anneal initiates recovery. This thermally driven rearrangement permits the bulk material to reegain or RECOVER its prior to cold work properties. So this part of the curve is called Recovery.

If the thermal application continues, (More time at temperature)new small crystals appear at the sites of the greatest dislocations, (what would be called deformation bands) visible under themicroscope. Over time these would continue to grow as more and more crystals nucleate throughout the matrix of the material until these grains all contact each other. (the original microstructure has now disappeared, being replaced by these new crystals. This is called Recrystallization. ) The bulk strength of the material decreases dramatically during this phase, and it is represented by the sharply sloping downward linear portion of the Sigmoid curve I mentioned.

Finally, with the continued application of heat, the energy level of the alloy is reduced even more as the grain boundary area decreases-this happens as a result of the grains themselves expanding or growing. Because the strength decreases as the grain size increases the curve showing hardness continues to decrease, but only gradually. I would describe this as an asymptotic tail of the curve , but I don't have a good reference to confirm that it is infact asymptotic.

So, your question is really about "How can we fool a material into being reduced by cold work greater than its physical limits would allow?" And the answer is by annealling, we allow the material at the crystal level to Recover by releasing energy trapped in dislocations,; continuing to add energy allows the material to Recrystallize, dramatically releasing its retained energy; and finally Grain Growth wrings out or releases the last bits of retained stress in the microstructure.

Now the material is ready for round 2 and another pass through the die...

Last comment, It is REALLY important to use the correct terminology in ones questions if you want to get an appropriate answer. The Recovery, Recrystallization and Grain Growth concept is applicable to annealing of cold worked metals, not "heat treatment"

Welcome to the field of metallurgy.

milo

__________________
People say between two opposed opinions the truth lies in the middle. Not at all! Between them lies the problem, what is unseeable,eternally active life, contemplated in repose. Goethe
Reply Good Answer (Score 4)
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42355
Good Answers: 1693
#10
In reply to #9

Re: Heat Treatment Processes

03/23/2010 11:31 AM

Milo,

You have such a way with words.

Cheers, Lyn

Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: "Dancing over the abyss."
Posts: 4884
Good Answers: 243
#11
In reply to #10

Re: Heat Treatment Processes

03/23/2010 1:39 PM

Don't encourage Him!

<Thanks Lyn>

milo

__________________
People say between two opposed opinions the truth lies in the middle. Not at all! Between them lies the problem, what is unseeable,eternally active life, contemplated in repose. Goethe
Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: China
Posts: 146
#13
In reply to #10

Re: Heat Treatment Processes

03/25/2010 9:36 PM

nice house. Is that red house yours?

__________________
I am not a home work cheater. I am a translator seeking professional help
Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Associate

Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 27
#14
In reply to #9

Re: Heat Treatment Processes

03/28/2010 4:08 AM

How does the heat "break the dislocation" and allow the retained energy to be released? Is it by breaking the bonds between the molecules?

And why are there new small crystals that starts appearing during recrystallization? I mean, if recovery stage breaks the bonds, it doesn't make sense that new crystals will appear by adding even more heat into it? Sorry for the noob questions :)

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: "Dancing over the abyss."
Posts: 4884
Good Answers: 243
#16
In reply to #14

Re: Heat Treatment Processes

03/28/2010 8:45 AM

Ask Asked: "How does the heat break the dislocation?"

We had posted :"This thermally driven rearrangement permits the bulk material to regain or RECOVER its prior to cold work properties. So this part of the curve is called Recovery."

By adding thermal energy to the material the crystal lattice can "heal" by permitting movement. (increased diffusion) This allows out of place atoms to find their way into the place that they 'want to be' by their size and properties. Conversationally, the added heat permits the material to relax by allowing the atoms under stresses to move the imperfections.

In crystal structure, its atoms, not molecules.

Next question was "And why are there new small crystals that starts appearing during recrystallization?"

I lack divine omniscience to answer "Why?" but I think that what we observe is that the material reorders itself into its prefferred crytalline arrangement, driven by the added energy. The dislocations act as speed bumps or wedges to keep atoms from moving; the added energy kicks those wedges out of the system. And the material at those dislocations is the place to start because it is that with the most degrees of freedom to do so. as the energy increases more and more atoms are able to diffuse into the new crystal structure/order.

Conversationally (metaphorically) I think of the heat as a neighborhood watch committee at the crystal lattice level. The more neighborhood watch volunteers you put in the neighbor hood, the more graffitti and litter gets cleaned up. (recovery) Keep adding volunteers, and soon small businesses appear.(recrystallization). And if the small businesses cater to the neighborhood watch people with valuable services these new business (grains or crystals) will grow (grain growth.)

No need to apologize for a question that seeks genuine insight.

Nice to meet you.

milo

__________________
People say between two opposed opinions the truth lies in the middle. Not at all! Between them lies the problem, what is unseeable,eternally active life, contemplated in repose. Goethe
Reply
Anonymous Poster
#4

Re: Heat Treatment Processes

03/23/2010 12:20 AM

See if you can borrow a copy of MAKING, SHAPING, and TREATING of STEEL, published by U S Steel

Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Piping Design Engineering - Retired Piper

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Bayonet Point, Florida
Posts: 635
Good Answers: 61
#5
In reply to #4

Re: Heat Treatment Processes

03/23/2010 7:27 AM

Good reference book, My copy is a Fourth Edition, 1925

__________________
Do it once and do it right
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: "Dancing over the abyss."
Posts: 4884
Good Answers: 243
#6
In reply to #5

Re: Heat Treatment Processes

03/23/2010 7:44 AM

With the two color pullouts?

I cherish my older copies too!

milo

__________________
People say between two opposed opinions the truth lies in the middle. Not at all! Between them lies the problem, what is unseeable,eternally active life, contemplated in repose. Goethe
Reply
Anonymous Poster
#7

Re: Heat Treatment Processes

03/23/2010 7:49 AM

Did you try to talk to your professor?

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 706
Good Answers: 32
#8

Re: Heat Treatment Processes

03/23/2010 9:30 AM

It would appear that your main concern is about gray cast iron.

Try this site:http://steel.keytometals.com/Articles/Art112.htm\

It has a fairly good explanation.

__________________
Spinco
Reply
Guru
Hobbies - DIY Welding - pipewelder

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: North Georgia, USA
Posts: 671
Good Answers: 33
#12

Re: Heat Treatment Processes

03/23/2010 3:53 PM

You have to say what type of metal you are planning to heat treat first. Is it low carbon steel, stainless, duplex, chrome moly, ands o on? After you figure this out you would have to know and say what end result you want accomplish, stress relieving, normalizing , annealing , hardening and so on.

Once you know the material then you can go to ASME sec. II part A for ferrous metals and B as for non ferrous metals well as part D for metal properties, and look it up for the alloy the ASME code has figures, tables and written criteria to follow for heat treating and find the proper hold time for each 1" of thickness of most metals. Another good source of heat treating parameters for different metals is the
Machinests Handbook.

Generally low carbon steel does not need post weld treatment under 3/4" thickness but Chrome moly steels nearly always requires PWHT at any thickness. Also many stainless type alloys react differently than carbon steel in that stainless would many times get a water quench at a high temperature if normalizing and no PWHT where the higher carbon content steels and chrome moly would require slow cool down from critical temperature for normalizing and PWHT.

The thing is different alloys will require different high temperature parameters and cooling mediums and/or rates that must be met to accomplish a certain type heat treatment. I am not sure if this is the type of heat treatment you are looking at doing. If you have this information and can let me in on it I might could help more.

__________________
pipewelder
Reply
Associate

Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 27
#15

Re: Heat Treatment Processes

03/28/2010 4:26 AM

How does the heat "break the dislocation" and allow the retained energy to be released? Is it by breaking the bonds between the molecules?

And why are there new small crystals that starts appearing during recrystallization? I mean, if recovery stage breaks the bonds, it doesn't make sense that new crystals will appear by adding even more heat into it? Sorry for the noob questions :)

Reply
Active Contributor

Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 11
Good Answers: 1
#17

Re: Heat Treatment Processes

03/30/2010 7:06 PM

The book you want is "Introduction To Ceramics" by Kingery from MIT. When I was a student at Alfred University, we students referred to this book as the Ceramic Engineer's "Bible"

Reply
Anonymous Poster
#18
In reply to #17

Re: Heat Treatment Processes

03/30/2010 9:07 PM

You have austenite and martensite in ceramics?

Reply
Active Contributor

Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 11
Good Answers: 1
#19
In reply to #18

Re: Heat Treatment Processes

03/31/2010 3:36 PM

Sorry Guest,

I did not mean to mislead. I focused in on recrystallization, graingrowth, dislocations and ferrites. The first three are common to Ceramics and Metallurgy. Ferrites to me are Iron Oxides commonly used as inductors or magnets. Without looking closely the austenite and martensite sounded like they could be typical ceramic mineral names with which, I am not so familiar (my bad). I worked in Ferroelectrics, Piezoelectrics and low band pass filters.

The Kingery book does however, cover extensively the crystalization of Glass Ceramics, dislocations, grain boundary and grain growth phenomena.

Now if only I could find my Kingery book after 37 years.

Reply
Anonymous Poster
#20
In reply to #19

Re: Heat Treatment Processes

04/13/2010 9:41 AM

Ferrites to you are iron oxides???? No offense, but I would be careful posting information like that...forums are supposed to help people not completely confuse them.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: "Dancing over the abyss."
Posts: 4884
Good Answers: 243
#21
In reply to #20

Re: Heat Treatment Processes

04/13/2010 10:12 AM

On steel I know of 3 kinds of Iron oxides (from my days in the pickling house):

Hematite Fe2O3 ,Red, Insoluble in acid 1030 DPH microhardness.

Magenetite, Fe3O4 Black, insoluble in acid, 420-500 Dph microhardness.

Wustite, FeO greyish, soluble in acid 270-350 Dph microhardness.

The first two are the outermost scales on rolled steel products, the third is the innermost scale. Wustite is also found in some meteoric irons. It's actually an umlaut "U" in wustite. Source: my 1985 Jr. Metallurgist Pickle house notes.

Guest is correct, no Ferrite oxides of iron.

Ferrite magnets contain Iron oxide, but that iron oxide is not Ferrite:

A ferrite oxide magnetic material containing, as basic composition, 11 to 19 mol % of iron oxide calculated in terms of Fe2 O3, 11 to 25 mol % of zinc oxide calculated in terms of ZnO, 0 to 10 mol % of copper oxide calculated in terms of CuO, and a residual part of nickel oxide, and further containing, as components subsidiary to the basic composition, 0.01 to 15 wt % of lead oxide calculated in terms of PbO, and 0.01 to 15 wt % of silicon oxide and/or talc calculated in terms of SiO2, wherein the ferrite oxide magnetic material has an initial magnetic permeability of not higher than 8, a sintered density of not lower than 4.8 g/cm3 and a stress-resisting and magnetic-field-resisting characteristic in a range of &#b1;5% calculated in terms of the rate ƊL/L of the change of inductance due to the condition of a magnetic field of 1000 G under a compressive stress P=5 (kg/mm2) parallel with a direction of magnetization.

Source:http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6183659.html

milo

__________________
People say between two opposed opinions the truth lies in the middle. Not at all! Between them lies the problem, what is unseeable,eternally active life, contemplated in repose. Goethe
Reply
Active Contributor

Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 11
Good Answers: 1
#22
In reply to #20

Re: Heat Treatment Processes

04/13/2010 6:32 PM

Dear Guest,

Just Google Ferrites. Hope that will clear up some confusion.

Reply
Reply to Forum Thread 22 comments

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Anonymous Poster (4); ask112233 (2); Kraemir (3); lyn (2); Milo (6); PennPiper (2); pipewelder (1); Spinco (1); wingman1985 (1)

Previous in Forum: Flue Gas Stack Material   Next in Forum: SS 304 magnet or not?

Advertisement