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HVAC, Ice Thermal Storage.

04/10/2010 1:55 PM

Hi guys , experts, Gurus , users and collaborators.

I'm looking all information about Ice thermal Storage , The revolutionary and green way for cooling in HVAC applications.

I already know a couple of things about it , for example , the system use a circuit to make ice during the nigth and that ice cover another water circuit cooled with that ice during the day .

I Have a couple of questions more :

For Example ( Not real ) : If i have 4 loads of 250,000 BTU/Hr each to be connected to an Ice Storage , Wich must be the common or individual water volume storage for the system ???

Which is the right size for the chiller or cooling unit to freeze the melted ice or the water ????

How many time takes the melted water to become on ice again?????

Which must be the cold water piping reincidence into the water/ice storage ????

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#1

Re: Hvac , Ice thermal Storage.

04/10/2010 3:23 PM

I hope you can reformulate this query in good language, with correct capitalization of words, and without queer punctuation such as "????"

There are several manufacturers in the world who make "ice bank" systems like this. The concept is perfectly valid without such fluff as "revolutionary" and "green."

Instead, you focus on what the daily cooling load is, how much ice storage it takes to accommodate it, and what times of day to build ice versus let it melt to produce plant cooling.

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: Hvac , Ice thermal Storage.

04/10/2010 4:58 PM

old news.

not revolutionary.

google thermal storage systems.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-12035633.html

http://energypriorities.com/entries/2007/01/ice_energy_peak_power.php

I visited a shop in texas that uses such a system.

The factor that is needed to make the decision is the delta between peak and off peak rates for electricity, and the cost to operate and install the ice system. BIG enough peak off peak penalty and even an accountant will figure out its a good idea. But THAT IS STRICTLY BECAUSE OF THE ARTIFICAL DISTINCTION OF TIME DEPENDENCY RATES FOR THE SAME KILOWATT.

Its no more"green" than the utility burning the coal.

Its just a technological reaction to cost constraints of peak electricity rate structure. no more dolphins will swim free because they use ice as thermal storage.

Just a a result of peak capacity valuation distortion allowed by the utility regulators. milo

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#4
In reply to #2

Re: Hvac , Ice thermal Storage.

04/10/2010 11:07 PM

Milo,

GA. I agree.

I do think there may be an indirect 'green' advantage to use of thermal systems. It comes in the form of not needing additional power generation plants to handle peak power demands. If customers were not using thermal storage systems, the power transfer would occur when the demand happens (early to mid mornings in winter possibly). This would increase the peak demand on power plants and possibly require the need to build additional plants requiring resources (material, energy, labor, etc.).

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#3

Re: HVAC, Ice Thermal Storage.

04/10/2010 10:57 PM

CERAMA-TECH OF TEXAS

Our company has had a lot of experience with ice companies and dropping their energy requirements on their buildings AND their refrigerated trailers.

Rarely ever, if ever, have the words 'Energy Star', 'Solar Reflectivity', 'Radiant Barrier' or 'Emissivity' been spoken in the same sentence as 'Paint'. We have changed all that.

The replies seem to be leaning towards the energy costs so I thought I would throw this out. We have many statements on our site. I hope you find them useful and informative.

Hal

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#5

Re: HVAC, Ice Thermal Storage.

04/11/2010 1:36 AM

Gentlemen, It seems we all get caught up in one system versus another. A water battery is capable of elevating water during off peak and generating during peak. Small savings if used alone. If one were to use free energy, say, solar to elevate the water then the price difference would be attractive. Ice storage has been proven to save money for those who have large cooling demands (CBS Studios, if I recall). What say you use a geothermal system in combination with Ice storage in the Southern states? Let's add heat recovery to offset some of the costs, etc. Think outside of the box and combine technologies to meet the end result. Free or near free energy to whatever degree possible. I think it absurd to discount one idea based on it's own merits, that when combined with another idea, could reduce our need for cheap foreign oil. Can't we all just get along? Gary

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#6
In reply to #5

Re: HVAC, Ice Thermal Storage.

04/11/2010 1:45 AM

As far as the US goes, are there southern states with decent geothermal capabilities?

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#14
In reply to #6

Re: HVAC, Ice Thermal Storage.

04/14/2010 10:42 PM

We are not talking volcanic geo-therm, but we do have a ground ambient temperature that is much lower that the surface and air temps allowing geo-therm heat pumps to be applicable. Hot air converted to A/C is an option with the waste heat being used for water heating, Etc. Gary

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#8
In reply to #5

Re: HVAC, Ice Thermal Storage.

04/11/2010 8:31 AM

Who is not getting along?

Free energy? One problem with solar is capital cost up front, Others exist of a more political and technical nature.

Failure to ooh and ahh over old news is hardly animus.

milo

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#15
In reply to #8

Re: HVAC, Ice Thermal Storage.

04/14/2010 10:47 PM

True Dat! What is free? Thought! I think, therefore I innovate. Could you agree that passive solar is free? All that is required is forethought as to the design and orientation of the structure. I think one should open up the tunnel vision and consider other possibilities. Gary

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#16
In reply to #15

Re: HVAC, Ice Thermal Storage.

04/15/2010 9:53 AM

Even a "free" energy source needs work and / money to harness.

I installed a grey water heat recovery system for my house shower and bath. I spent about $100 on material to make the heat exchanger that pre-heat the cold water going to the heater. I had built the house with a separate grey water line for about $200 in material. I spent a couple of days to make and install it. At best, in the winter, I get a 10C rise in temperature. Summer efficiency is not as good because the city water is warmer. This represents about 10% savings on water heating bill of $200/year. This would represent about $20/year. Not counting my time, the payback (neglecting cost of money) is 15 years. Since it is a low maintenance item that does not have any mechanical parts to fail, it is likely to last at least that long. I will "probably" get some financial return on my investment some day...

If I had bought the commercial version at $600, the efficiency would have been better to about 15%. The payback (neglecting cost of money once again) is about 23 years. Not likely to be ever paid for in my house ownership life time.

This is for a simple contraption made of copper pipes. Once the technology becomes more complicated and maintenance is factored in, many "free" energy system never pay for themselves. One has to be aware that often, the only payback is the pleasure of developing and building the system. Iy you are looking for a financial payback, investigate carefully the pros and cons.

I am proud of my heat recovery coil and show it to my visitors but when asked if they should do it, I usually say no. Only a self-doer will get something out of it.

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#17
In reply to #15

Re: HVAC, Ice Thermal Storage.

04/15/2010 10:49 AM

Hi Gary. I wrote my first article for publication in Mother Earth News in the mid 1970's. It was about solar. I'm no luddite.

The project that I wrote about was how to use "found materials" to create a solar hot water source for my "business." It involved a refrigerator, sheet metal copper tubing, glass, wood and plastic tubing and connectors. (i didn't want dissimilar metal to metal contact.) Even with 'found materials' I probably had $25 bucks in this project.

I am not sufferring from tunnel vision. I use solar to power my ipod touch exclusively. I have been studying and experimenting and researching this subject seriously since the '70's.

Real world implementation always has to pass muster with Economics. That is different than Classroom and lab demonstrations and "picture if you will" thought experiments/ conjectures that are so frequently posted here.

"Free" is when I walk outside because i was going to anyway and the sun warms me.

"Not free" is when there are additional costs above the norm to capture store and distribute.

I happen to adore passive solar.

But I am not confused to think that that comes at "no additional costs."

Presuming that we ignore the differential of costs of building materials between passive solar and traditional stick built cape cod or colonial house for the moment,(Glass and masonry inside for thermal mass vs cheapest siding and drywall and low thermal mass interiors) there are still costs associated with "doing different."

The design and orientation of the structure is currently dictated by plat plans and zoning boards that ignore optimum angle, and lot location and setback, and contractors and utilities trying for maximum packing and minimum costs of utility infrastructure. So cost of variance, and the increased cost for developers to deal with these individual site nuances will add very real costs.

And I have not ever found Robert Heinlein's words attributed to Lazarus Long to fail :

"Theres A No Such Thing As A Free Lunch." TANSTAAFL.

In my life experience, Additional requirements always bring additional costs.

milo

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#18
In reply to #17

Re: HVAC, Ice Thermal Storage.

04/15/2010 11:37 AM

I agree 100%

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#19
In reply to #17

Re: HVAC, Ice Thermal Storage.

05/05/2010 11:24 PM

There in lies the difference between a glass half full and one half empty. I choose to look to the thinkers and dreamers regardless of the short term cost. If one accepts your position, nothing is worth the investment and nothing changes. This forum operates as a collaboration of ideas toward a common goal of energy independence. Your negative input fuels my desire to prove you wrong and through this exchange, ideas are born. No insult intended, quite the contrary. Please keep expounding on how something won't work until someone overcomes the objection with something that will! I have paid for every lunch I have ever enjoyed and will gladly share my portion with those who have not. Gary

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#7

Re: HVAC, Ice Thermal Storage.

04/11/2010 2:32 AM

As indicated in earlier posts- most of the time, Ice-based thermal storage is valid only for an economic reason, not as a Green Solution. In fact, because thermal storage shifts power consumption to the evening and away from daytime use, it likely ADDS to the issues of climate change rather that helps make things "better". That is because the shift allows the utility to better use their (likely) coal-fired generators more effectively and eliminates the need for them to fire up natural gas-fired peaking plants during daytime operations. Since the peaking generators are natural gas fired, they create less CO2 than the primary generators.

The reason that ICE is used rather than just chilled water storage is because the ice adds the phase-change latent heat to the storage mix. In addition to a BTU for each degree F temperature differential for each pound of water, ice adds an added 144 BTU per pound for phase change. Of course, since ice is colder, the refrigeration system must make colder fluid so the total refrigeration load is often higher.

Typical Ice building systems use a glycol brine solution cooled to about 22F to make the ice (requiring a 17F refrigerant), compared to a normal chiller making 45F water (with a 40F refrigerant). Based on an 85F condenser water temperature, the DeltaT (and related pressure differential) for making ice is 68F for the ice vs. 45F for the standard chiller. Even allowing for cooler condensing at night (70F) the differential is still 53F vs. the standard 45F. In addition to the added refrigeration loads, the glycol mix has a lower thermal value (requiring more to be circulated) and has a higher viscosity (adding to pumping energy). Net effect- Current ice-storage systems have a 30% higher energy use compared to a standard chiller.

However, it is possible to use Ice-storage in both an economically AND environmentally attractive way. You just have to use the correct systems and operate them in the right way.

My firm has recently developed a totally new style ice-based thermal storage system that solves ALL of the problems that currently plague other systems.

First-

We make 30F sub-cooled water under pressure and release it into an atmospheric pressure tank. The sub-cooled water "flashes" into a slush where the ice float to the top of the tank and the 32F water is returned to the chiller. Making 30F water needs 25F refrigerant, so our DeltaT differential is 45F, the same as the standard chiller, so there is no higher cost to make ice.

Second-

With 32F chilled water, the operating DeltaT of the chilled water system is 29F vs. the "normal" 16F for typical high-efficiency chilled water systems. Normal ice-storage systems make standard 45F chilled water because they have to melt the stored ice and need the DeltaT to accomplish that. Our system uses the return water fed into the top of the slush and the warm water melts the small ice crystals quickly as the water becomes 32F again. That means that the pumps and piping are 45% smaller (saving on installation costs) and the system uses 45% less pump energy (saving CO2 and NOx).

Third-

Because of the 32F chilled water, the air handlers can make 45F supply air vs. normal 55F supply air AND the colder water allows more moisture to be removed so, rather than the normal room conditions of 72F and 50% RH, the room can be held at 78F and 40% RH, which is about the same comfort level but reduces the heat gain from outside for a reduced overall cooling load. The 33F supply air temperature difference will require 52% less air than the normal 17F differential, so the air handlers can be smaller with more installation cost savings in addition to the reduced CO2 and NOx.

Fourth-

Because our system uses a mixture of ice and water, and the ice is less dense than the water, it is possible to measure the weight of the tank and know exactly how much ice (thermal storage) is left at any time during active operation. No other system has this capability.

Fifth-

Because of our ice crystal system, there is no limit to how fast ice can be made or melted so a single storage module can support a large load, compared to other systems that have limitations on how fast ice can be made OR melted and often require more storage units than the required ton-hours of storage would indicate for even higher economic value.

So- you can see now not only how ice-storage is used in an HVAC application but also how it is possible- with the right kind of system- to cut installation costs, operating costs and be Green using ice-storage.

As to what size chiller and storage are required- it is totally dependent on the specific average daily loads, total active operating hours, and how much of the load that is to be covered by the storage system and how much will be covered by active chillers during the peak operating hours. There are several guidelines available to determine those values.

Hope that this helps.

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#10
In reply to #7

Re: HVAC, Ice Thermal Storage.

04/11/2010 9:31 AM

Nice work! There is nothing like private industry to come up with real useful technological advancements. It might not sound as sexy as the "Hydrogen Highway" but it works and gives real gains.

Thank you for sharing with us.

Your system is obviously intended for industrial applications with a cycling period of about 24H.

For residential applications, I was looking at a seasonal energy storage. I wanted to use the cold Canadian winter to store (free) ice for summer cooling and the summer heat for winter heating but the mass/size/cost of storage tank was out of this world!

I finally chose a geothermal heat pump and planted leaf trees on the south and west side of the house to maximize winter solar gain and provide cool shade in the summer. This is simpler, less expensive, and looks better that a big tank.

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#11
In reply to #10

Re: HVAC, Ice Thermal Storage.

04/11/2010 9:42 AM

MY friend built an earth sheltered house in michigan. Off grid, Small wind turbine, Many photo voltaics. Deep cycle batteries from an old phone company (still working!)

His only regret was building what he called an "annual cycle" refreigerator (out of concrete!) right in the middle of the kitchen. The idea was to freeze the water in the winter and with super insulation etc... use it to keep the perishables from perishing.

There were some issues with ice floating vs water density etc. Never did work.

Long story short, The electrical refrigerator is in another room, and the annual cycle refrigerator became the pantry...

milo

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#12
In reply to #11

Re: HVAC, Ice Thermal Storage.

04/11/2010 12:58 PM

That is the problem with many good ideas. They can be very difficult to implement. Often the return is less than the cost of implementation.

Although, if the energy was more expensive, one could probably solve the problems that he faced and use mass production to turn it into a viable product.

This might be another of these ideas that is ahead of its time.

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#13
In reply to #10

Re: HVAC, Ice Thermal Storage.

04/12/2010 12:20 AM

Marcot-

It sounds like a reasonable, relatively simple solution to me.

Our system NORMALLY supports larger commercial and industrial operations, mostly because a lot of utilities have not yet come up with truly effective time-of-day billing for residential retail customers. When they do, we will be able to "right-size" our system to be able to support residential loads and fan-coil air supply systems.

By the way- our 400 ton-hour storage tank is only 10 feet in diameter and 12 feet tall (and you could bury it (mostly)).

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#9

Re: HVAC, Ice Thermal Storage.

04/11/2010 9:27 AM

I worked with a large hospital in South Florida about 20 years ago that had a very good KW cost contract using this type of system at night (during off peak time) to make ice. I'm sure boat loads of R&D has taken place since then.

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