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Underground Fires At Landfills Worry State EPA

05/10/2010 9:26 AM

I have been scavenging at and then reading about landfills since I was a kid, and from the beginning decided they were such a waste of resources.

I remember seeing H.J. Heinz products dumped by the truckload because the weight was off, clothing from stores, new & boxed appliances, other boxed items, slightly used cast-offs, and metal scrap that could be recycled dumped in the local landfill.

Of course this was before garbage was an owned commodity by the major landfill operators such as Waste Management, Republic, etc.

A few of the old retired mill workers, including my grandfather who was typical of the great tinkers and by the seat of his pants innovators of the last century, had a sort of good old boy club at the land fill, picking to pass away the time. The pace was a lot slower and the loads did not have to be covered quickly as today.

Ah, the joys of an apprentice tinker like myself, as known and mysterious stuff was salvaged and brought back to the farm for investigation, experimentation, and use.

I received a new in the box Sony tube clock radio (complete with all paperwork) that I kept for about 20 years. Fine craftsmanship, wood cabinetry instead of plastic, rich sound, and so big and sturdy, especially by the standards of today. Definitely a keeper and not an item built with planned obsolescence.

And then after that joyous era was stemmed by Big Business buying up all of the Mom and Pop Operators, the regulatory agencies stepped in, the law making began, and planned obsolescence began, I started to read about Landfill Gases and the efforts around the world to extract and use it.

I have long been leery of plastic, and especially in landfills and Steel Mill Sludge Containment Ponds and figured this was a great opportunity. I visited a couple of the extraction plants at local landfills and though they were operational, the design was cheap, cheap, cheap, but it was a start.

So, this oration brings me to an article I read this morning, and wasn't aware of:

The first sign of trouble came in August when wells drilled into the millions of tons of rotting garbage buried at the Rumpke Sanitary Landfill coughed up heat and carbon monoxide instead of natural gas.

No one knows what caused the 10-acre underground fire that is still burning in the landfill north of Cincinnati in Hamilton County.

Three fires are burning in northeastern Ohio landfills, including one at the Countywide Disposal and Recycling Facility in Stark County. That one started in 2006.

Aside from being notoriously difficult to extinguish, these fires can produce air pollution, explosions and landslides. They also can melt the buried pipes and plastic liners meant to shield groundwater from pollution.

More potential for problems, energy being wasted, and resources not recovered, any ideas on what we should do, how to present it, and open up an industry that could employ thousands. I am sure we would have no trouble finding immigrants who would do these jobs, if natives wouldn't, after all a slaughterhouse or chicken processing plant has to be worse.

Look to the scavengers all over the world that pick to survive.

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#1

Re: Underground Fires At Landfills Worry State EPA

05/10/2010 10:57 AM

Ah yes, the joys of scavenging!

In western PA at least, and possibly other places, you see engineers fighting the homeless for dumpster diving rights. Places like Pitt, CMU, MSA, etc produce great trash - the challenge is getting to it (why should security guards stop you from "stealing" what is headed for a landfill?). Even today, my wife cringes when we walk past a construction dumpster and I "just have to look."

I grew up next door to a blacksmith shop - no, not the horse shoeing kind - and the old guy would go to the town dump at least once a week and bring home all sorts of stuff. He had perhaps two acres neatly sorted and stacked, some of it at least ten feet high. When he died, it took three days to auction off all the junk and it brought somewhere in the neighborhood of $10 000 (late 60s dollars).

But, you could take him almost any request you could imagine and he could usually find a piece of junk that he could weld, forge, or machine into what you needed, and usually for only a dollar or two. Nobody ever threw away a worn-out hoe; he'd just put a new 2" or so on the edge and you'd be good for another five years.

He always kept a bottle of Four Roses whiskey hidden beside the forge and he'd start and finish every day with a good "snort". After his wife passed away, he continued to keep the bottle by his forge. When we asked why he just didn't take it in the house, he said he had tried that but it didn't taste as good in there!

By the way, when we were kids, we were all poor, so that was the way we financed projects. We'd go to the dump, dodging the cops (who didn't like us there), and look around till we saw something that could be turned into a telegraph key, a rocket, a submarine, you name it. Every kid who scavenged that dump turned into an engineer or technician.

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#4
In reply to #1

Re: Underground Fires At Landfills Worry State EPA

05/11/2010 8:15 AM

Was the magnitude, quantity, and quality unique to Pittsburgh?

I remember neat stuff coming form Bettis, PPG, Gulf, and USS.

(flasks, beakers, tubing, SS vessels, all kinds of great stuff)

But, the newest and best consumer type stuff came from Squirrel Hill.

I still know people out here in the Burbs who travel in town and make a living scavenging.

In fact, scavenging is coming back big with some marginally employed workers around here, but just for the scrap value.

Discarding is still going strong in these McMansions and it is getting interesting.

Last year, I found 4 perfectly great oak dining table chairs that just needed soaked to tighten up the rungs, and LOL, passing by last week, the table was tossed also.

It needs refinished, but otherwise has not been destroyed except using Elmer's Glue.

A soak and that all ran off, now if I ever find time to refinish it.

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#2

Re: Underground Fires At Landfills Worry State EPA

05/10/2010 11:29 PM

So what initiates the fires? One possible source is masses of discarded small batteries. Another is discarded oil based paints.

A real troublemaker would be a small medical oxygen bottle. They will fit in a garbage can and when one visualizes what might happen following the death of an elderly packrat person when uninformed relatives are cleaning up the old family home it's easy to see such an item going into the trash. All it takes is the ram in a garbage truck compactor to create a tiny leak.

Ed Weldon

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#5
In reply to #2

Re: Underground Fires At Landfills Worry State EPA

05/11/2010 9:42 AM

Oily shop rags for one.

All the materials decomposing could create enough heat on their own to create ignition.

Then there are people that throw things away that are meant to be disposed of by other means. Chemicals that ignite when coming in contact with oil. All that material decomposing provide methane gas, which in many dump sites they pipe it out as a feul source.

I'm sure the waste managment personnel aren't above throwing a lit cigarette into the pile without giving it any thought.

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#6
In reply to #5

Re: Underground Fires At Landfills Worry State EPA

05/11/2010 10:31 AM

"Oily shop rags for one."

That's an old wives tale. There was a time when the oil in "oily shop rags" was linseed oil and other exothermic driers for paints. Masses of such rags were truly hazardous. That is rare today. Automotive lubricating oils, by far the most likely type to find in garbage, do not oxidize at a rate fast enough to build up any measurable amount of heat no matter how you store them.

What is a greater possibility today is heat generated when two part resins are discarded together in a way that allows them to mix in bulk as the containers are broken during the garbage compaction process. As municipal landfill operators shift over to effective recycling and hazardous material disposal programs such problems should diminish.

On the other hand the methane gas has potential for igniting from minute ignition souces. Seems to me that this is one area to look for the problem of underground landfill fires.

An interesting aspect of this problem may be to reevaluate the types of material in the refuse stream that are likely to decompose to methane gas. In my county they have a well run recycling program that reduces the amount of wet organic material that goes into the landfill by separating garden waste and encouraging composting to reduce food waste. It's a nice idea to extract energy (read $$$) from a landfill but the problems it can create may well outweigh the benefits of continued addition of methane producers.

Ed Weldon

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: Underground Fires At Landfills Worry State EPA

05/11/2010 11:19 AM

Thank you for that information.

OSHA still requires a separate container with a lid for oily shop rags. It's also an inspection item by the Fire Marshall. So even if the likeliness of a fire ever breaking out is minimal, there is still the potential.

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#10
In reply to #6

Re: Underground Fires At Landfills Worry State EPA

05/11/2010 8:57 PM

Not too long ago I remember a vending company filling a dumpster container every single day with returned food that wasn't spoiled or bad. A gentleman was even fired for eating from a small bag of potato chips that were to be discarded. I believe there was something along liability lines that caused them to persue this policy. If people only knew what is wasted they would be shocked. Is this what really keeps our economy going?

How long can we continue to be the throwaway society?

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#11
In reply to #10

Re: Underground Fires At Landfills Worry State EPA

05/11/2010 10:18 PM

Guest -- Here's my take on both your example and that of Niel Kwyrer #3.......

Elected and appointed members of governments usually don't have the bandwidth to tune the laws and administrative rules to handle every possible situation. Even here in the most prosperous areas of the USA NGO's pick up the slack and do what is right.

In the case of perfectly edible food that must be discarded we have several non-profit organizations active in the CA Bay area that very effectively handle this task to the benefit of thousands of needy folks. These organizations are sophisticated enough that they have learned to indemnify the donors and cover their own potential liabilities. In the case you cited I could give you long odds that such a company throwing away good food in our area would not be able to survive the glare of publicity if it refused to cooperate with one of the food gathering groups.

In the case of reusable stuff that may otherwise end up in the landfills there is another grass roots movement out here to establish small local groups for matching up "givers" and "takers" of free stuff via such internet resources as Yahoo groups. One such in my area is the 95033free group. This group is a lot of fun and even conducts "free stuff" meets periodically following which any leftover stuff finds its way to local outfits that function like small scale Goodwill entities.

Even some of the established recyclers are getting tuned in. One long established scrap metal collector has for years had a retail arm that offers selected saleable scrap metal for sale. Their load inspectors know what to look for and sort for the retail sales department. Lots of real treasure shows up there often an rediculous low prices for what it is and can be used for. And how would I know that?

Ed Weldon

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#3

Re: Underground Fires At Landfills Worry State EPA

05/11/2010 3:01 AM

I love scavenging & have learnt so much by fixing thrown out items. trouble here in Australia is the EPA!!! and councils that enforce the regs!!. Means very few open tips left- shame because landfill is reduced by recycling rather than burying "uneconomic to recycle waste". With planned obsolescence in most cheap goods these days- shame!.

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#8

Re: Underground Fires At Landfills Worry State EPA

05/11/2010 2:43 PM

Landfills in general are getting close to no attention in the "green revolution", but they should. Landfills in the USA are polluting the aquifers in very serious ways, and we will pay the price soon.

In some countries that don't have the "extra" space that we have in the USA, they are piling their garbage up on the ubiquitous flat roofs! Think of the disease that will result from that.

There is a solution. The Plasma Gasification system can burn just about anything in our USA landfills(even concrete blocks and loaded shotgun shells). The process can yield a hot gas that can be used for many applications, including running GE turbines to generate electricity (1/3 of which can be used to power the plasma arc!).

These Plasma Gasifiers are clean burning, and do not stink like ordinary gasifiers that are now used to burn some of our refuse.

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#9
In reply to #8

Re: Underground Fires At Landfills Worry State EPA

05/11/2010 3:14 PM

WoodwardDL -- What's the investment cost and energy use profile look like? I'd assume that possible energy sources are the methane we already talked about, wood construction materials, non saleable recycled paper and garden trimmings. How do you think the ROI would look for a municipal waste facility that already has a good recycling program going?

Ed Weldon

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#12
In reply to #9

Re: Underground Fires At Landfills Worry State EPA

05/12/2010 11:22 AM

Ed;

I don't know the economics of these Plasma Gasification systems yet. However, one company offered the city of Sierra Vista, AZ a FREE system, if they would just promise to deliver at least "X" number of tons of garbage a month to the hopper. The town council eventually refused, because they thought the garbage might be worth even more in the future!

The PG supplier was going to do this because they were going to add GE gas turbines to generate electricity, which would be sold to the grid. They estimated a break even in 5 years, (as I recall).

Japan has been using two of these for several years. They are a great way to get rid of new garbage as well as old from landfills. The big added benefit is the electricity that can be generated (2 times more than is needed to keep the plasma going).

A solid "obsidian-like" material is produced as well. It can be formed into blocks which can be used as pavers.

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#13
In reply to #9

Re: Underground Fires At Landfills Worry State EPA

05/12/2010 11:24 AM
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Anonymous Poster (1); Ed Weldon (4); Janissaries (2); Neil Kwyrer (1); qaqcpipeman (1); TVP45 (1); WoodwardDL (3)

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