Explosives Experts, Could This Be Done?

I forgot to mention that this could be tested first at some "dead site" just to get the charges right. There should be some similar hardware in place somewhere land based? No need to try it underwater first.

You would just open up another uncontrolled path for Oil to spill out. I just think you do not know enough!

34point5

I doubt any other expert in explosives will tell you different

So you are an explosives expert then? If yes, could not that be calculated? How much when and were and how deep? I have just used arbitrary numbers and was hoping someone would say that this can not be done because the charge and timing could not be calculated, in such a scenario.

If a BOP can do it (or in this case, it can't) would not some calculated explosive force, equivalent to BOP's, at just the right time, distance and direction crimp that bore hole including the steel pipe and its surrounds?

Maybe you are wrong and their are some dedicated experts out there who could keep the guesswork out of this.

At best, it will achieve opening a path for oil to the adjacent drill hole.

Well, that is why I envisage several explosions. One sealing the other (in the explosives bore) and at the same time crimping, squeezing, flatten the main bore. The mother of all putting an end to any flow at the water, bed rock inter face. Do I really have to make a sketch for this?

Sorry that I did not write a complete novel about my theory. It would be better, I suppose, but I need a bit more information about the exact controllable factors of this situation and the science behind it.

I don't even know what kind of geology is present and how much explosives would be needed to move rock vertically for about 24 inches, just in one direction. Maybe it would be better to start from the top? You see, I have to think about how to word it in a way to not confuse people, like the Guest, and hope some Ace confirms or disproves the ability of Blast Masters, concerning such a challenge.

Your view of things has not convinced me that it can't be done. I'll hang in there for a while, not to worry, Ky.

Suit yourself.

I'm guessing it depends on the properties of the existing oil pipe. If the pipe is malleable at the high strain rate of an explosion, the concept might work. If the explosions cause the pipe to shatter, you might make matters much worse.

Hi welderman

Yep, its the guesswork that I wanted to take the ax to. I have read most of the posts and followed most of the links but have not the time nor the abilities to find out details required to assess the hardware situation proper. We, or most of us, have no idea what the components are made of ( concrete, steel, bed rock, mud above bedrock[depth]).

My flawed idea is a direct result of this lack of detailed information, hence, my attempt to involve third party Master Blasters and consider their input. They would need to know these details as well but could possibly access them easier and hear it from the horses mouth what they would have to deal with.

What I see/observe after large explosions (911, car bombs, IED's etc) is usually powder, deep holes and bent steel. It is usually the only recognizable substance or structural element left.

This is observed above ground, I know, but what would happen at 5000 feet depth and underground? You would not have bits and pieces flying around but would have an enclosed system. I remember a machine that made steel pots from steel plates inside an enclosed system (mold) by setting of an appropriately sized charge.

My point being is, that even if the pipe shatters it will be replaced by the masses of debris from the second, third, fourth explosions (plus the big mama at the top pointing downward. After all is done that would create 250 feet of compacted debris (my guess work, could be more) above the point were the oil/gas leak would exist, if a fracture of the pipe occurs.

Hope all goes well, Ky.

First off I am stating that I am NOT an Explosives Expert. I want that point made perfectly clear to all. I, however, do have some experience employing explosives of various types, including shaped charges (MIL types) in the US Army/Reserves serving with several Engineering Battalions, but have zero experience with using them 5,000+ feet below the surface of the ocean with all the inherent problems that presents.

IMHO, even if you employed several (minimum of 3 spaced equally around) shaped charges (hoping you get the calculations correct for distance and yield) around the bore pipe all you will be ending up with is a crumpled pipe with several longitudinal fractures from which more oil can be released.....it will not stem the tide so to speak.

It's a waste of time, money and energy if you ask me, and results in much more damage than already present.

That is all I'm going to say about this subject.....good try Ky.

I am not an explosives expert, but I have observed a very, very good one in action years ago. Most of the work I observed had to do with breaking up subterranean structures for excavation. Usually, before the driller would come in, the extent of the area to be blasted was predetermined. The driller would then drill a few holes to determine the depth of the "lens" he wanted to break up. He would then drill the holes for the charges- if any of the holes penetrated the lens to different material, he would abandon the hole and drill a new one, because, if the hole penetrated the lens, the blast would not have the desired effect. He would size his charge based on the volume of material to be broken up, and the material characteristics he was working with. When the charge was finally set off, one would hear a "Wompf!" and see the surface of the land lift slightly and generally very uniformly. No flying rock, no dust or debris. The earth movers would move in, and the ground would be broken up into appropriate pieces to be handled by the equipment.

I once watched this guy blow a hole in rock INSIDE an existing house, to make an indoor swimming pool. No damage to the structure (which was concrete, which says this guy pretty much knew what he was doing). I have also watched videos of blasters bringing down large buildings in urban settings, without damaging adjacent buildings.

Now, in all these cases (and in the case of your blast-molded pot), the blaster knows quite a bit of detail about what he is dealing with. He knows the material he is blasting, and the structure around the blast which will guide the energy as he desires...

In this particular case, one should be able to determine the rock structure one is dealing with from the well log, and have a pretty reasonable idea as to how the material will react to the blast. One could also predict how the pipe should react to the blast- assuming one knows what is inside the pipe. There are likely two concentric pipes, there may be concrete inside for at least part of the length we want to crush, and there may be some additional equipment in the pipe (i.e., what kept the BOP from slamming shut?).

The next question is, how close are you going to drill the blast hole to the well? There is going to be a limit to how close you can drill, due to debris and such from the damaged rig. You are going to need a drill rig very much like what sank, to work in 5000 feet of water. I am not sure how accurately one can set such a system up. Can you get the hole close enough to where it needs to be? How long does it take to set one of these rigs up and start drilling? They say that relief wells will take 90 days to drill. Believe it or not, it does not take all that much longer to drill horizontally than it does to drill vertically, so we are still talking about at least a couple of months just getting ready to blast (less time than a relief well, because we can drill the hole to a smaller diameter).

One would expect the blast pattern to be more spherical than you illustrate (assuming fairly consistent rock structure), and you have to know pretty well how far you are from the pipe. You want the pipe to crush, not rip to shreds.

The one thing your drawings are missing that would be critical to this operation is the distance between the drill rig and sea bed- nearly a mile. When drilling for oil, if one misses the target by a few feet, it isn't all that critical. But here, you need to know very accurately how far you are from the well casing. Think about trying to drop a straw into a coke bottle from a few feet up. But you can't see the mouth of the coke bottle. Possibly, you could use submersibles to guide the tip of your drill string to the appropriate position, but this sounds like a pretty tricky operation.

Could it work? Possibly. But what is your backup position if it doesn't work? One of the things about the work that is going on is that there are several operations running in parallel- so that if the first solution doesn't work, they don't waste a whole lot of time thinking up a new approach. If your efforts to blast-seal the pipe ultimately result in a larger hole that has to be plugged, how do you plan on dealing with this?

I don't think anyone has sufficient knowledge about what is down there to be able to reliably predict how a charge will behave...

Thanks mate

I'll reply a bit later. Interesting comments, Ky.

I should only accept a no after elaborating and extensive tests, thus a YES for now.

Apparently the Soviets stopped several oil leaks with very high yield explosives.

And what was the consequences, if any, of those actions? Did the marine life quickly recover? Remember the Marshall Islands? The waters around them are teeming with life now and they recovered much faster than experts thought but it still took a good 30 to 40 years.

Although we are happy to help brainstorm various approaches to this problem, BP is the responsible party. I am told they have a web site, and are actively seeking suggestions for dealing with the leaking oil. Why not submit your suggestion to them? My personal favorite would be to have a robot insert and activate an expandable plug into the leak.

Rubber bladder, dry nitrogen...

Were do I find that website?

"Amateur suggestions to BP oil spill"

I googled it and there are 1.600.000 entries. Like I said, I don't have the time. Have you got a link? If I knew that it would be at least looked at I would go through the trouble and detail my plan of attack and make some more drawings.

Gotta go, Ky.

Since BP has already installed the marginally successful 6-inch diameter oil pickup tube into the end of broken pipe, why not utilize it by pumping tons and tons of hydraulic grout under pressure back into the leaking pipe? Of course the grout pressure would have to be under much greater pressure than the crude oil pressure otherwise it'd be blown out before it could set up. It doesn't take rocket science to figure this one out, eh BP????? Seems to me that it will be more successful than BP's nutty idea of "blown-down" ops which IMHO will fail........

You may share this with BP if you wish.....

bladder,leak stops,plug as you will...

I just wonder how you're going to snuggle that rubber bladder into the broken pipeline with the new 6-inch suction pipe sitting in the way? Even if the suction pipe is withdrawn, trying to shove the rubber bladder into the bore pipe may be very difficult, if not impossible, due to the high pressure imparted by the oil flow. You have to overcome that pressure using a robot, not an easy task to say the least....also have to worry about tearing the rubber bladder on the jagged steel pipe end.

You must be the same Guest

Have you ever seen what happens to rubber at those temperatures. I mean even other stronger substances like the PVC hose tubing (suggested in another thread) would become so brittle it would only last seconds.

Get a life, like I did, Ky.

Thanks for the suggestion Capt' n.

How can that be done? It would be faster fixing the leak than to get some one to have a look and discuss it with me. You know there are a few points that have not been clarified by me. This is blocking my brains since weeks and is causing a lot of stress on my side. I am not a technical writer and am so busy keeping my work on track that I just don't have the time to get into more detail. Being refuted with out people reading the suggested procedure is not helping either.

Not one expert in the art of explosives has replied. I am as stupid, uneducated about the possibilities to choose the correct terminologies as I was a week ago. That 400' bore hole would have been long drilled. And the charges set and timed, sized accordingly.

This oneupmanship and fighting for intellectual supremacy has not helped these poor souls at all. I am certain it would work if handled by the people in the know. I think all the people having had a look at this, imagine some kind of huge explosion. I am more thinking on the lines of small thuds, well timed, sized and well placed.

Still have no butter on my bread and have to get back to the real world.

Hope all goes well, Ky.

No Wukkas Ky!

I've been a little reluctant because this is a destructive testing method and there should be other more repairable methods to use first.

But theoretically this is a sound proposal.

It surely requires some tests before, but that you said also.

I know nothing about explosives but if the reactive forces are applied this way.

I give it a fair chance.

I also do not know if the next explosion will slightly open the previous one again.

But someone can start the tests to answer these questions.

This is definitely a good proposition.

Thanks

I can't find any information about the bed rock. But never mind, once it is known it can be moved to the side for about 18 or a few more inches. That's what I thought an expert cold tell me. Like, if I have to compress sandstone from say 10' distance and move it say 24" to the side I will need 10 pounds of say XXX and aim it an angle of say 5 deg down ward and this should happen.

If it is Basalt or Granite change the formula. Easy to say isn't it?

I can't see that the explosion would do much damage to the first explosion result, which is 50' further up. All a matter of dosage and timing he said and left to his corner.

You know, feeling less of a crack pot helps. Thanks to the others who get my drift as well.

If I could only help, Ky.

There will be by now a few shiploads of clay in the seabed to level the crater. That steel pipe is a soft baby - ST37 - 4 thumb push loads and they will be out of specs.

Bo\o/om baby bo/o\om. !@#@#

Greetings,

I read your blog with great interest. I have proposed a similar solution except that I proposed using two shaped charges on opposite sides of the riser to crimp it shut. As with your solution there would probably be multiple crimping operations involved. I this out as the body of approximately 40 emails to approprite politicians and military folks. To date I received 3 replies... and only one was NOT an automatic response. I wonder what will happen if enough oil escapes to affect the internal pressure of oil deposit? Will the sea bed collapse??

Bob

Please go here

Could Pouring Cement Help Plug the Oil Spill?

I have made some further comments about this and am not going to give in just because I don't have enough relevant information. To be sure a master blaster will have to advise, if ever.

A big problem with this is the way we are communicating. It would take me hours to collate all the pros of my concept and now I am sending you somewhere else. Hope you don't mind.

Will the sea bed collapse??

This hole planet is in constant flux. A pimple squeezed is pressure relieved but on a scale beyond our imagination. The sky will not fall on us

Hope all goes well, Ky.

I couldn't find the details in the "Blasters handbook", but the effect of a blast is a function of the rock properties, the blast hole diameter, and the type of explosive used.

Radiating out from the hole, the first zone is essentially powdered, and extends for so many hole diameters.

The next zone is a fragmentation zone where rock is simply fractured and the structure opened up.

Beyond this the effect varies from limited to nil.

For this to work you probably need to be towards the outside of the pulverization zone, but before the fracture zone fully develops.

Within this zone, most materials behave in a reasonably ductile manner, outside the behavior is less certain.

Pressure under which the explosive operates also affects the behavior.

BP and it's contractors have available:

1. Bore logs. These detail the rock through which they have drilled so the rock and it's properties are fairly well known, but not necessarily it's behavior under the prevailing pressures.

2. Seismic experts. Among other things, these fellows number experts in the behavior of explosives under very high bore pressure, as when they let off seismic charges to map the formations underground.

3. Drilling rigs, both platform type and ship mounted for geological exploration. It would take some time for a suitable rig to be freed up from it's present work, brought to the location and into position.

4. Remote controlled submersibles with a variety of useful attachments.

The temperature of the rising oil should ensure the well casing is above the brittle transformation temperature, (at least while underground), so the steel should behave in a ductile manner. We wouldn't want it to behave like the Liberty Ships in the arctic ocean during WW2.

From the above, BP should have access to the people to design the blast and the tools to do the job.

The method proposed should work in theory, but there are some practical problems.

a. Drilling this far underwater and locating the hole close enough to the existing hole to have the charges effective. Locating a hole to this accuracy would be testing, but not impossible.

Perhaps spudding in the drill bit can be corrected by a submersible to ensure accuracy. Interesting test of the skill of the submersible operator.

b. I don't think explosives have been used under this high a pressure, so this opens up a significant degree of uncertainty as to the behavior of explosives, rock and steel well casing. The pressure is more likely to make the steel behave in a more plastic (ductile) manner than brittle.

The scheme is basically possible, but would stretch the envelope of existing practice. Nothing unusual there. Drilling in this depth has already stretched the envelope considerably.

As an aside. What happened to stop all stages of the blow out preventer from operating? The rig operators were experienced and made several attempts to operate it, the preventer had been tested only a few days before and these things have several stages so that failure of one won't prevent the others from shutting the well down.

From memory, the last stage preventer permanently seals the well.

All stages seem to have failed. How? Why?

Good to see you here sceptic

Try this link

WHAT HAPPENED ON THE DEEPWATER HORIZON

34Point5 supplied it. Very interesting and gives a good rundown of what could have happened. They took a big gamble and lost. There are a couple more in that thread also from 34point5 and others. Very educating.

Wonna start drilling on the great barrier reef with me Mate. We have to look for a spin doctor first. Don't worry, its 100% safe.

Humans!

Have a read, Ky.

Do we really know what the origins/source of the crude oil laying in pools deep below the surface of the 'solid' surfaces of the earth, either above or below water?

It was once thought that it was the decay products of prehistoric animals, but more recently it is thought by some to actually be the result of some as a yet unknown process that makes it as a product of the earth itself. This results in the replenishment of the oil withdrawn from nearly all of the oil fields around the world. Some of the oil in the depths of the ocean(s) may well provide lubrication for the movement of tectonic plates that result in earthquakes.

The use of explosives in/on the ocen floor may well result in large fractures in the bottom and a resulting release of far more oil that can ever be captured and/or cleaned up.

As far as the current conditions in the Gulf are concerned an agressive cleanup and removal of all of the surface oil should have had a top priority from the git-go. Several operations should have been undertaken from the first indication of trouble.

Thanks for your thoughts Stan

The details of my concept are now spread over several threads and I think I am the only one with all explanations and scenarios in my head. Since I first thought of it, about six weeks ago, I have learned more about oil exploration and the technical difficulties involved than I ever wanted to know.

What I know less about is the craft, art of setting explosive charges. Non of the experts I contacted personally have ever responded. They sure must be a breed on to them self's and crack potting me would be one of their easiest most entertaining exercises. Not one response in CR4, in any of the threads, by the people in the know.

Maybe I'll have the Feds on my doorstep soon because what I want to know about explosives and can find on the net, would make red flags go up in any search and control engine of theirs. What I found was that practically anything could be blown up, calculated even such, in comparison to nukes, small explosions.

All understandable. New or better defined explosion control mechanisms are not something that should be in the public domain. The are potentially the tools of a President would they not be?

Although your points are valid they do not invalidate my approach.

The use of explosives in/on the ocean floor may well result in large fractures in the bottom and a resulting release of far more oil that can ever be captured and/or cleaned up.

I understand your concern and will attach a detail later on. This will not move the earth for any one, but only a small and well studied geological structure. Just a few feet in the direction of the well bore.

I think the word clean up needs revising. One can clean up a cancer, kitchen, oil spill on a small scale but cleaning something up that will keep polluting and making the efforts a Medusa like experience. We have not seen any thing like this on a scale of time and mass. Even if they stop the flow now, as we speak, it will take some time to integrate the black puss into the life styles, cycles of creatures living in that environment.

If this would be a patient he would be declared dead because even if, when saved the post treatment, aftermath would be not worth the trouble. Very sad and I just hope that I don't regret not having pushed harder for my concept. Is "I have tried" good enough?

Because mother earth is the patient here, there is no fear of her dying any time soon. We have inflicted a bad wound in/on her. We will have to play the white blood cells for a while and stop this hemorrhaging. I have to get used to thinking like one Stan, so bear with me.

That's why I am suggesting controlled, directed surgical explosions. Just what a surgeon would do when using a clamp, to stop time. Nip it in the butt, nice and easy now, just a little bit of this and then some computer simulation about that. At least in theory my approach is still valid. The quality of my communication is just limited to what I know for sure and that is not much. Nobody else seems to know much more so I'll stick with it for the time being.

Thanks for your reply Stan, Ky.

Randall supplied this

this assessment

Lord have mercy, Ky.

Nice to see someone finally agrees that the casing is insecure, the BOP is restricting, the casing anchor is eroding, and best not to stress the system further.

And, oh look, the gas came from an intermediate strata rupture.

But I do admit; I hadn't considered wholesale sea floor collapse, given 18,000 feet of rock overburden. Must be a frigging wide cavern. Geologists - gotta love em.

Might be best if they contact DVM and then line up every ship they can get.

Who needs physics and logic when you've got greed!