Gasoline Engines

No words of wisdom or thoughts to share. I'd just be interested to see what the others would say. I've thought about the possibility but don't know enough to find out if it's feasible or not. Good luck.

its a waste of your time to investigate further. Modern electronically controlled closed loop fuel injection systems are extremely reliable and extremely precise. Metering a proper ratio of air and fuel vapor will be extremely difficult and impossible to manage under transient conditions. That is the beauty of the modern closed loop oxygen sensors--they will clearly detect a single misfire of a single cylinder.

A stationary constant load engine would be much easier. Engines that utilize propane or butane manage quite well because there is sufficient pressure available to use reasonable sized (small) flow controlling variable orifices and pressure regulators. That is not possible with gasoline--the vapor pressure is too low. You would have to get it to about 400F to ensure is all vaporized at atmospheric pressure.

The person who responded to the question about gasoline engines either works for a major Oil company or he honestly has never heard of the V-Gas system Invented in the late 70s early 80s. Vaporous Asperation. It worked.

Just wanted to let you know I agree with you, this guy sounds like an oil man. Another point to ponder are the chemicals put into gasoline to prevent high temperatures to get the vapor pressures needed for this system to operate.

I take it you two are under the mistaken belief that this secret will increase fuel economy, and that is against the interests of the "Big, Bad Oil Companies".

Wow!

Is it possible for people responding to these sort of threads to take the time to subscribe so that it's possible to tell who's saying what. There's some really interesting stuff coming from "guest" but for me there's too many guests at this party!!

I dunno. Playing safe I guest .

Those of us who registered have somewhat concealed our identities by using pseudonyms. A guest, however, has an additional concealment since there are so many other guests. Some of them offer good advice, some of them pick a fight, some of them seem to just enjoy cracking jokes.

I've often wondered what the world would be like if we were all engineers or technologically minded people. The answer came to me in the form of CR4. It's no different from the world as it is now.

I suppose concealment of identity is one thing but it's a big world out there and unless you name starts with G.W you're reasonably anonymous anyway.

I prefer input to have an identity because you can judge it's value from your previous experience of the contributor. If someones made several comments that you know to be correct, when they make one on a unknown subject you can feel more comfortable about taking it on board. The reverse is also true!

Mr Guest is one of our most knowledgeable and prolific posters, he seems to know almost everything, there is one thing he does not know, a thing we all know:

We know he is an idiot (most of the time...)

But at other times, I am absolutely brilliant!

Do we really want to know when?

I worked for a guy in the early 80's

he was driving a crude version on the concept.

dodge 318 pick up.

the gas poured on a sponge inside the air filter [ sort of like a LP conversion ]

Got around 25MPG, improved power.....

worked prety well, until it backed fired through the carb & lit on fire [ loose timing chain ]

I don't remember much more, as it's been nearly 30 years.....

It does seem to be a valid goal since gas engines, run on vapors, not liquid fuel

You will probably have to climate control your vapor expansion chamber, to allow for temp, humidity, barometric pressure.

sounds like a carburettor to me. A burette is a device to allow a stream of fluid to be controlled by a valve. So they adapted this to a car, and stream of gasoline or propane is allowed to vaporize into and air stream and be drawn into the cylinder on the intake.

Fuel injection is injected late in the cycle after a significant amount of compression has taken place. That means you would have to create a gasoline vapor and compress it and keep it at a high temperature so it stays as a vapor and then inject this large volume into the cylinder. At this point someone will suggest, why not condense the vapor to a liquid and thus inject a smaller volume = more efficient

Aurizon,

Your mention of compressing the vapor clicked something in my head.

A compressed gas (air, gasoline vapors, whatever), when released into the cylinder and dropping its pressure, will drop its temperature as well, negating the heating of the vapor, maybe even causing the vapor to condense. The compression stroke of the piston will probably restore this heat so, my question, would there be any need for the compression of the vapor in the first place?

This isn't my area of expertise so I may be wrong. I'm just going by what I know about these things.

And don't forget the heat of compression will aid in instantly vaporizing the liquid fuel as it flows from the injector, another reason to ad fuel late in the cycle. T1 x V1 = T2 x V2.

Correct me if I'm wrong but, the mist from a fuel injector is supposed to vaporise upon contact with the hot interior if a cylinder during the intake stage. The fuel vapor mixes with the air during this stage and the compression stage. This way, you don't have hot air/fuel mixtures flowing about the engine block- a rather unsafe situation especially during and after an accident. So, even though the fuel is injected in liquid form, you still get a vapor before combustion.

Only way I could imagine improving the system is to direct the air flowing into a cylinder into a vortex rather than a jumbled puff.

I had a friend, a number of years ago, who worked for GM during their heyday. He told the story of a guy who returned to the shop to have his big Cadilac checked because it was getting around 75 miles per gallon. He said the shop fixed him up by replacing his carb with a non-experimental one and his mileage went down to normal. I know this sounds like an urban myth but I saw his old GM I.D. He also talked about how they put Tucker out of business by coercing his suppliers to cease and desist. I have to admit this guy was a bit ecentric but he was in his '70's and could do math calculations faster in his head than I could on my calulator. Anyway, more to the point, I read one time that about 2/3 of the gasoline going into an engine was used for cooling down the cylinders in between firing. I don't know how true this is but it makes sense when you consider the typical gasoline engine "used to be" about 30% efficient, roughly.

nope, that is an urban myth that plays into some people mind set and that perpetuates it.

if 2/3rds of the gas exited unburned we would smell it like you can smell a rich mixture and there would be smoke.

Tucker may have fallen pray to monopoly tactics, but his managers attracted the attention of the securities comminssion.

They collected $19 million and built about 50 cars. I think he failed due to high costs and porr money management.

The cars looked good and have some features, but his engine appeared very costly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tucker_automobile

There is a bit of truth in his statement though. In a airplane with an internal combustion engine, where you control the mixture as well as the throttle, when you run a leaner mixture the engine runs hotter.

All these tales of fantastic mileages are myths. Standard tuning involves shoving an analyser into the tail pipe and adjusting for efficient burning of the fuel.

I'm not saying that you can't get better results but it's tweaking, not 75mpg stuff.

This is mostly true... if you are drag racing! there's no way a V-8 can burn up 12 gallons of gas in a 1/4 mile. This is why the side exit pipes have a ton of flames comming out of them. Also if you talk to an old timer, you used to be able to light a match 10 feet from a puddle of gas, and it would ignite. They have reformulated gas to be "safer" and thus put an end to carbs like the pogue. I am also working on using heat from cooling system to enhance vaporizeation, but am expecting 45-50 MPG not 200. A friends grandfather has a '63 Buick with a check ball on the carb to controll water injection. Unheard of? no! but always disputed as B.S. by people with blinders on. Money makes this world go round. If it would put big oil on the skids,it's blocked, bought, or otherwise hidden from publick domain.

If you have the time, equipment and smarts to modify a regular engine, my $0.02 worth is that you would be better off injecting water into the cylinder(s) just after ignition to take advantage of the greater expansion powers of hot steam. Adding water into the fuel-air mixture in a carbureted engine worked well for both power and 'fuel economy' but was more difficult to control. At low power and engine speed it simply stalled.

The adding water technique is dug up again: it cools down the hot mixture very fast and prevents the forming of N oxygens.

Why would someone want to vaporize diesel? It is designed to burn in liquid stage.

The fact of injecting the fuel after the compression is beneficial for the overall efficacy.

Deisel fuel does not burn as a liquid. The reason for injection after compression is iginition timimng. The fuel will burn when mixed with the air under the exterme compression of a diesel (22:1 aprox) ignition is emminent. The injection timing is the equivalant to ignition timing on a gasoline engine.

Petrol(gas) only burns as a vapour the liquid will not combust there is no oxygen available to let it burn. An internal combustion engine requires a given amount of fuel to do a given amount of work. Calorific conversion. A lot of the efficiency of any engine is lost as heat hence the need to cool it before it all melts. Fuel injection was invented so as electronic brains could be introduced to further control emissions. NOx and Co. I know that fuel injection predates electronic engine management. OK. The comment about steam injection got me to thinking I had knowledge of this idea, yes a work mate tried it out it does work but needs to be thought through. In very cold weather the water could freeze up. He had a capillary tube wound around the exhaust manifold down pipe three or four turns the water came from a metal can fixed to the inside wing. The feed point was into the low pressure side of the inlet manifold. The engines suction pulled in the steam. The only draw back is remembering to keep the can toped up and the added use of oil, the hot steam washes the oil out of the cylinders. Stops carbon build up but increases wear. Molly slip or STP may help here. A good electronic ignition system producing a bigger longer hotter spark is another way to get better millage, just make sure the plugs will stand up to the extra stress. Keep your tyres at the correct pressure as well because this reduces running resistance. Run the car a light as you can no passengers tools or any other excess weight. Have the gas tank 1/4 full fuel adds weight. Only ever travel down hill. Use the wind to help you along, get a tow from the vehicle in front. Jokes aside I hope this may be of some help. Nitrous oxide makes it all go faster for a little time until you have to re-build the engine.