Do You Think Cogenerative Energy or Hybrid Alternative Energy is Sustainable?

Let's see, if only we could incorporate geothermal and hydroelectric generators, we'd have it totally covered.

Payback in 200 years. You think this stuff's free?

As a technological civilisation the only possible thing that we can do that will not adversely effect this planet in one way or another, is to pack our bags and leave. Anything else that we do will have some effect some place or some time in the future.

Agreed, everything we do affects the planet but the key is not to 'save the planet'. The real challenge is to not screw the planet up completely for future generations of humans.

For any energy source to be sustainable it must have a minimal negative environmental impact AND be economically viable, hopefully without government incentives.

rwengin; this is already in operation, in my state. a company using lost wax gold working is using gas from land fill dump to run gas powered genset for electric, the engine heat to air condition cooling in summer and heat in winter. perry

you got a long learning curve ahead. why use a gasoline powered generator? gasoline gensets can be run on wood scrps and crop debris, through a process known as gassification, which turns wood into flamable vapors, and works about like a propane conversion. gas engines can also be run on home brewed ethanol, with some mods.

There are thousands of people around the world now, using wood scraps to power their vehicles and generate electricity. search "woodgas"

thousands of people in eastern countries now take all their bio-crap, animal,human,yardwastes,leftover food, etc and use methane composters to make cooking and heating gas.

if you use a diesel generator, they were pretty much intended to be run on vegetable oil anyway, and most are easy to convert, with no or little engine modification.

And using solar panels to make electricity to heat water makes about as much sense as putting an ashtray on a motorcycle. just use the sun to heat water.

in the early 1900s at the worlds fair, there was a display which used a reflective parabolic dish to heat water into steam, powering a 50 horsepower engine which ran a large power generator head.

and if you throw in a thermoelectric power generator, which turns any heat source directly into electricity with no moving parts, you quickly discover, "god gave us fuel, greed gives us gas"

I was in Korea in 1965 and the country side was completely denuded of trees and brush and of course the soil would not stay on the mountain side. It was all being used for fuel just for the locals. No industry.

The biggest problem I have with the "green idiots" is that they have no concept of quantity, quality, reliability and the need of industry to operate with reliable fuel sources that can justify their millions and even billions of dollars of investment. Korea of course has changed. North Korea is the same and worse. A satellite picture shows N. Korea black and dark at night. South Korea is lite up like a Christmas tree all over the country. Their power generation (gas, oil, nuclear, water) now allows the forests to regrow. S. Korea is turning green (not brown) for a good reason.

This is so true about the destruction of forests for fuel. Haiti is the same way. I have often wondered why parabolic mirrors or fresnel lenses of magnifying glass lenses are not used more in solar water heating/steam generating plants, both large and small.

It is totally possible (and affordable) to use the available methane from a digester to make power AND thermal energy with 99% annual efficiency (way less than 2 year payback using digester methane). This system has already been installed for over a year at an industrial plant.

If you do not need all the heat (very likely most of the time), you can use it to make more electricity. Actually- your best bet is to use the heat solely to make electricity and then use the electricity to make whatever heat you need.

My firm makes both systems- CoGen AND thermally-driven generation. Our thermal generators work totally differently than any thing that is out there NOW. This is a brand new design (we are testing the prototype in 6 weeks). Assuming that it works the way our calcs say it should, we can operate with a thermal-to-electric ratio of about 1,000% (that is right, not 35% or 40%, 1,000%) AND we can recover over 85% of the input thermal as well at about 200F water.

Contact me for more info.

1000% efficency means that you are getting 10x more power out than the power input. NOT POSSIBLE.

Better check your calcs again or be prepared for dissapointment.

Calculations have been reviewed by chairman of engineering department of a major university.

Our system uses several related technologies to achieve the results, including a brand new modification of some very old technologies. Just because no one has done it before does not mean that it cannot be done. Anyway- we will know for sure in 6 weeks.

Prior to our system, about the best available CoGen system performance was 71% efficiency by the package at Kent State University. Last summer, we had 105F entering air with 84F leaving air- all the fuel AND 21F of 4200 SCFM of ambient air went into the process while it was producing 275 kVA of electricity (102.2%)- all fully documented.

Not surprising that a "chairman of engineering department of a major university" would confirm those numbers. Obviously not an engineer since no engineer, or student passing 10th grade physics, would accept these numbers as anywhere near realistic. I suggest you have someone technically capable review and locate the source of the errors in your calculations. A brainy senior from the local high school should be able to give you more accurate numbers.

While petroleum and plant oils are valuable commodities, there is no market for snake oil here.

The "chairman" is a PhD ENGINEER who holds two patents and is involved with development of some major aerospace equipment with a Fortune 50 company.

Since YOU have not seen "the numbers", I am at a loss as to how you are able to know that they are "smoke and mirrors". Frankly, a 10-grade physics student COULD understand how this system is able to do what the numbers say that it can do. The science is relatively straightforward, but it is a totally different way of doing something than has been done for over 300 years.

Sorry, but you claimed

"we can operate with a thermal-to-electric ratio of about 1,000%"

Unless there is another energy source that has been ignored, it is physically impossible to directly convert 100 [J] of waste heat into 1000 [J] of electrical energy.

You MAY have a fully functional, and economically sound, high efficiency process. However, you should be cautious about making such absurd and highly suspicious claims as they can severely damage your credibility.

I'm still trying to get my brain around 102.2%, never mind 1,000%.

If all the energy put into a box yields the equivalent amount of electricity and thermal energy out, then it is operating at 100% efficiency.

If all the energy put into a box yields the same amount of electricity as the first box but it is able to provide MORE thermal energy output than the first box, its efficiency has to be higher than 100%.

The CoGen system had 4.2 MMBTUH thermal input (plus air), it provided 4.3 MMBTUH output because it "extracted" 21F from the entering air and injected it into the thermal output. So, it was 102%+ efficient.

Regarding the 1000%- Steam engines respond to pressure, not thermal energy. The thermal energy can be used to create pressure. The pressure created totally depends on system design. I have redesigned the "good old" steam engine to operate differently so that it can produce the "same" amount of energy output with only 9.5% of the "normal" steam input (after allowances for friction) OR you can us it to produce (1 / 9.5%) or 1052% of the energy with the original amount of steam. "X" HP will produce "Y" kW of power- if "X" is over 1000% of "normal" X, you will get over 1000% more kW of power. Because the steam discharge is condensed, as well as the flue exhaust, we are getting about 85% of the thermal input recovered as well.

A true genius!

Must use 'new' math and fuzzy logic in the calculations!

how many people thought the Wright brothers could fly, before they went to kitty hawk?

How many people thought that little wind powered race car with the big prop sticking out the back could travel across the desert 3 times faster than the wind pushing it was blowing?

How many people( just in the US) STILL think man has never been on the moon?

How many people watched the mythbusters episodes about the dissapearing rifle bullet made from ice couldnt work to kill someone. Dissapearing ice bullet theory busted.

How many people, who think ice ammo wont kill you will stand in front of my compressed air cannon after i stick a big chunk of an icecicle down the barrel?

If somthing works, it works. despite the math.

bumblebees cant fly, remember?

if the water feeding a flash boiler powered steam engine were wrapped around the piston cylinder and passed through a coil of tubeing in front of the steam engines exhaust, preheating the water, the efficiency would come way up. It would take a lot less btus of heat input to make the steam engine run

just like if you take the 33f purge water comming from a commercial icemaker, and run it across a coil of the water inlet line to the icemaker, the efficiency jumps about 50%, you get twice the ice out of the machine, and the compressor works less.

Honest to god, i have seen a icemaker at a pizza place whose water inlet line ran through 50 feet of attic, down past the compressors hot exhaust vents, and into the ice machine.

No one could figure out why the icemaker wouldnt work right, it never made enough ice to keep up, lol.

Too much reality TV and discovery channel for you!

Your examples or similar are given every time someone (greens especially) want something to work 'real bad' - no matter that you have to break rules of engineering or science for it to do so.

Thinking? How many people in the US think - forget about the moon. Just watch politics and the arguments that fools readily accept. Maybe 10% of the population even has the ability to think? Some of them even come here!

As much as I'd like to believe you, I just can't. You take too many liberties with words.

Good luck.

Figures don't lie...... Our cosmic-energy income account consists entirely of our gravity-and star (99 percent Sun)-distributed cosmic dividends of water power, tidal power, wave power, wind power, vegetation-produced alcohols, methane gas, vulcanism, and so on. At first thought, I reasonably concluded that, Energygod has developed a gravity machine. -or not. what was i saying about figures....

For all of you who could not see HOW we could be getting the 1000% performance that we claimed- YOU WERE RIGHT!

Even though both the PhD and I had reviewed the calculations- I KNOW THE RULES- and neither of us could see anything wrong, I went back and did a line-by-line review once again.

There- right in the middle of several key calculations- was the screw-up. You cannot mix RPM with pounds per hour. After the magic "60" was inserted to make the world "right" our performance dropped down to only about 32-34%. More reasonable for everyone, I am sure.

Even with that change, and some modifications to our selling price mark-up, we can still produce a "reasonably" efficient machine that can run on renewable energy-based thermal OR low grade heat like flat-plate solar panels OR waste heat from a refrigeration system (to eliminate the need for cooling towers) and still sell for about $2,000 to $2,500 a kW- fairly cheap for a system that can operate with those kinds of inputs.

THANKS TO ALL FOR YOUR CHIDING.

I VERY RARELY make an error like this- like I said, I KNOW THE RULES, but I could not find this one very easily even though it did not make sense. It sure SOUNDED great. AND- when we got the prototype built (in about 4 weeks) we would have proven it to ourselves then.

Beyond that issue- the 99% annual efficiency CoGen I talked about really does exist and has been running for over 18 months in a Fortune 50 company facility. And, last summer, we did see 105F entering air with 84F leaving for 102%+ based on input energy value. Anyone who wants more data can contact me and I will give you the name of the site contact.

By the way- I'm glad I gave all of you something to think about other than Chelsea's wedding.

This is more than an error. Believing a 1000% performance efficiency is beyond belief and shows what you and your "prof PHD?" really are. A product of AA and PC education. Not retrievable nor explainable other than being what it is. Ignorant beyond belief. Worse than being a flim flam man---you don't even know better. Get another career. America can no longer afford idiots. Maybe eventually we will be able to get rid of our political idiots and restore simply good old American know how to pick America back up. Marxist Socialism never helped anyone other than to destroy millions of lives.

I clearly stated the issue that triggered the error, AND my understanding that the numbers we were generating seemed to be erroneous but we were unable to find the error (until now) that caused the issue. Everything else was on track.

I find your personal attacks on someone that you know only from a few words in an electronic forum to be totally reprehensible and without ANY justification other than your obvious disdain for much of current society.

I have won an international energy award from the most prestigious engineering group in that business, as well as several national and local awards, as far back as 1985. My solutions have not only reduced energy usage, they have lowered installation costs and produced systems that have run for several years without any major disruption, although periodic disruptions are very common in those type of systems.

The CoGen system I referred to is the FIRST TIME that ANY CoGen system has operated above the low 70% efficiency ratings AND it cuts CO2 by 80% plus smog-generating NOx by 95% while paying for itself in less than 2 years (way earlier than ANY other CoGen system.

Since YOU are such an expert, and know SO MUCH, what have YOU done for society that is worth anything? Are you still employed, or has your position been phased out because the bean counters did not see the value you created?

Instead of telling people what a pile of shit you think they are- think about who they might be and what they are trying to do to make life better for everyone, including you. I MADE A MISTAKE, AND OWNED UP TO IT OPENLY. Sometimes, even though we try our best, shit happens. When it does- figure out how to clean it up and try to avoid that circumstance again.

At NO TIME was I ever trying to cheat anyone or sell something that would not (could not) do what was claimed. I truly believed that I had found a way to make everyone's life a little better. Frankly, I am sorry that I was unable to be successful in THAT quest, but I will continue to try to find some other way to make life better for everyone- including you.

I suspect that many have done as much or more for the good of humankind but don't want to brag.

Too bad you got your feelings hurt but you deserved it I am afraid.

I am skeptical about your claim of a CoGen that operates at 102%+ efficency based on input energy value. I would like you to provide the data and the name and email address or phone number of the site contact.

I will send that date to you privately- via LinkedIn- and will provide it to anyone else who would like similar information.

Anyone else can request the data privately, through a pm

It has been a month, I have yet to see any data to support your impossible claim.

Claptrap.

I guess he hasn't heard about the fact that a gnats navel worth of knowledge is worth a 747 load of certificates and degrees.

If a company has a dairy farm they will have to make a decision as to: are they in the dairy business or simply a test case for a hodgepodge group of technologies that have been laying around for the last 150 years but have never proven themselves economically---except to arm chair Utopian idiots. They end up broken, blown up, or "flaky" and abandoned so that if in the dairy business the "company" actually eventually produces milk with proven technology.

Go ahead do this, but quit talking about it--- do it then get back to the world on your success. For myself I would like to see just one example of this type of thinking be successful in the world. The catch to my wish is that it has to run at least for one year and the farm produces milk, before it all falls apart. Is that asking to much from the Utopian Greens out there. Also the milk must sell for less than the price of gold. Are we still asking to much? Or in reality we are simply dealing with "words" coming from ignorance.

A couple more thoughts: How long do the dairy cows have to build up the pile of xxxx that will charge the digester to make methane gas. What will the dairy run on while that initial charge is taking place. I guess you could start with a herd of non dairy cows just to collect the xxxx.---initially.

Where is the liability insurance underwriter that will underwrite a methane producing digester on a farm. No smoking signs will not cut it. Since we are talking a big system needed even for a relatively small amount of available gas they could hire Union workers who are job protected (by the feds) in everything they do and the excess workers (paid by the govt protection society) could be sure to pass gas into the system if set up with the proper check valves and pressure reducers. That may work. No one else however will have any money left after taxes to buy milk.

IF you took the time to do a little investigation rather than just throwing stones, you could easily go to the DOE website to get a story on a dairy farm digester that converts the manure from 2000 Holsteins into 300 kW of constant power output. That is 3 kW for every 20 cows- using just the generator system.

The original post did not state how many cows they had, but 100 would be a reasonable guess for a small farm. That means that they could produce about 15 kW of steady power- again using only the generator- with significant amounts of thermal (hot water) available as well.

USDA has grants available to assist in the funding and the site would gain a method to treat the manure in a way that can improve other uses- like liquid field fertilizer and reduced storage and handling during cold weather.

If more farms took this approach, the air would be a little cleaner and the farmers would have a little more money to feed into the economy because their operating costs were a little lower.

I wonder why taxpayer dollars always have to subsidize the processing of BS or in this case CS. This all sounds good and of course it is for a little while. The analysis does very little to calculate total costs to maintain the system. It is like the wind energy business. Overseas where the windmills have been installed longer---a large percentage of them no longer work and of course are not being fixed.

One wonders how long this "Digester and Generator" will stay in place without Tax subsidies from the Tax payer. They are called "grants from the DOE". If the BHO govt. stops all oil drilling maybe it will become feasible. However the cost of gas and milk will stop anyone from buying milk. They won't be able to drive to the store.

Most dairy farmers would automatically use this method if it was more efficient and effective to operate. If what is said is true why does that not happen, other than with Tax payer dollars. A large Dairy farm is already heavily subsidized with Tax dollars because of Government provided price support for milk. Eventually the current socialist US government will not be able to feed itself no matter how much money government workers make. Or how much they use Tax dollars to subsidize the dairy industry. Those are real facts--not "green" PC Utopian BS.

WOW! 3,000 Watts for every 20 cows! Hmmmm lets see 3000 / 20 = ONE HUNDRED FIFTY PERCENT EFFICENCY! I must be a freakin Einstein!

People have been burning sun dried cowpies for centuries...

Useful Idiots. A lot of this thread is missing the true picture of the elephant presented. We are of course a group of blind men each grabbing on to a piece. What we lose sight of is that these ideas do not represent technical advancements (the technology is well understood along with its limits) but it is being used in advancing control by the federal government of the US economy. Using your tax dollars to do that. A government redistribution of wealth creating huge inefficiency in American production with higher costs of food, fuel and everything else. Why are we doing this?

The free market has always been the innovator and the driving force for America. Current political process and individuals want to eliminate that. A free market decentralizes government power and makes them (politicians) less secure. In recent America, (past tense) individuals or companies who recognized real inefficiency could accomplish their economic and family dreams by eliminating that inefficiency---where ever it existed. "Good old American know how"

Take these thoughts where you may but beware of the ignorant hustler who thinks that the economic value is going to be determined by payments from the federal government. DOE grants simply represent politically directed and motivated methods of control. Controlling you with you own money. Not a shot being fired.

When the free market is not involved it becomes literally tyranny with government control. The government decides who wins or loses. It is an object whose value is not based on merit and advancing process or society but on greed and the ever expanding control of the federal government. They need useful idiots who as demonstrated can only calculate their payments for pushing the Agenda of an out of control government increasingly telling people what they need to do. America no longer will be the land of opportunity but be driven by "DOE grants" and or VOLT tax credits.

Granted if they push the "unbelievable" due to being truly a benefactor of men with a God complex they are truly Useful Idiots to the government takeover. A good definition for a useful idiot is an ignorant zealot. Or PHDs who do not realize that a calculated efficiency of 1000% is OK if they do not recognize the "explainable error of their calculations". That all was worth a good laugh.

However there are larger issues here--that I believe are becoming much more important given the government takeover of 70% of the US economy.---this occurs without even the politicians knowing what was in the documents they "passed". What happened--to "we the people". Things are connected to a larger picture that needs to be recognized. If you own a company and are in business like I am you know what I mean. America is in a transition period that has created more uncertainty and anger in the majority of Americans than I have ever seen in my Life. All must become involved. Useful idiots cannot be allowed to continue rambling on without challenge.

Each person can do what they want to conserve energy. Many, perhaps even a majority, will do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. They will pay their hard earned money to the utility company.

Many people will do some things: use CFL bulbs, turn off lights when not in a room, use a small energy efficient TV, set the thermostat low in winter and not use air conditioning in the summer, use a programmable thermostat to lower the temperature setting at night in winter, keep furnace filters clean, insulate the walls/windows, drive a fuel efficient car or a bicycle. These people will save a significant amount of money when it comes time to pay their utility bills.

A VERY few people will use the most energy efficient appliances, have a small passive solar home, heat with wood they grow on their own land when it's cloudy, and use so little power that with just a very few solar panels, they can provide all the electric power they need. They may not even be connected to the grid. They may not have a TV at all, they may collect all the water they need from roof drains, they may grow most of their food ,etc, etc, etc. They will change their lifestyle dramatically because the choose to do it and they will get a lot of satisfaction knowing they are self-sufficient and doing as much as possible to tread lightly on the planet. They may pay nothing to the utility company each month.

It's up to each of us. That's why we are doomed.

I think they call those people "Amish".

Of just so far out of town the power company won't run a line to them...I have a piece of property I want to build on and the power company field engineer came out to meet me and evaluate the site.

He told me just to design the house to be completely off grid and save myself (and him) a lot of time and trouble running the power lines through 3 miles of dense woods across other peoples property.

As he put it, if they didn't even set the meter, I'd have to pay $200 a month forever to pay them back for the lines and tree work.

Total cost to go completely off-grid for a new home with all the ammenities of an on-grid home is an extra $20,000 up front.

This would include: solar shingles [$6K](in lieu of panels) with battery packs (golf cart batteries & 5Kw generator charger backup[$1K]), waterfall pelton wheel operated alternator [$500], geothermal cooling [$2K], solar/LP water heating [$2K], solar passive central heating [$1K], LP cooking and back-up heat w/ tri-fuel(LP, 12v, 120 volt) refrigeration from travel trailer [$2K] composting toilets [$2K], all low voltage LED lighting [$1K], ram pump maintained water tank with gravity fed12 volt inline travel trailer water pump for house pressure [$1.5K], gray water garden/composting system [$1K].