Diesel Fuel

Best answer i can give is that parrafin (uk) which i beleive is simular to jet fuel does not have the lubrication properties of Diesel so accelorated wear would occur in the pumps and injectors that rely on the lubricating properties of diesel.

Parrafin can be used in dilution to help prevent diesel freezing in winter

Hope this is of use

Good Answer Peter.

I worked in the USAF also. My AFSC was fuels, I was responsible for all the jet fuel, diesel and gasoline that came on base at my last assignment.

I have spoken with many in the past about this same problem and was informed that JP8 will burn in any diesel engine, but it lacks the lubrication for long term use and will reduce engine life by increasing wear. I have heard that you can add friction reducers to the fuel and it will help but is still not the same as running Diesel.

JP8 also has additives that are intended to lower the gel and freeze points of the fuel for high altitude use.

Drew

• Further to my comment regarding lubricating properties of diesel

"Diesel engines rely on the lubricating properties of diesel fuel to lubricate the fuel injection system and other components," says Boehman. "DME has no natural lubricating properties and we will need to add a lubricating additive for diesel engine use

• Coal-Derived Fuel Burns Cleaner 13 Oct 1999 ... "Diesel engines rely on the lubricating properties of diesel fuel to lubricate the fuel injection system and other components," says Boehman ...
  www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/10/991013075254.htm - Cached - Similar

more on lubrication of injector parts

taken from below link

Lubricity

Lubricity describes the ability of a fluid to minimize friction between, and damage to, surfaces in relative motion under loaded conditions. Diesel fuel injection equipment relies somewhat on the lubricating properties of the fuel. Shortened life of engine components such as fuel injection pumps and unit injectors usually can be ascribed to a lack of fuel lubricity and hence is a concern to engine manufacturers. This property is not addressed adequately by ASTM D 975.

ASTM has issued two tests to measure lubricity: the High Frequency Reciprocating Rig (HFRR) and the Scuffing Load Wear (SBOCLE) test. Current acceptability guidelines for both tests are provided in our chart. Aftermarket additives for improving diesel fuel lubricity should not be necessary and are not covered by this recommended guideline since they may react chemically with other additives causing them to lose their effectiveness, drop out of solution or even plug filters

http://www.tdiclub.com/articles/Diesel_Fuel_Guidlines/

I think that if you were to test the fuels you obtain from your normal sources, you would find that they do not meet the minimum requirements.

thedieselplace.com did a study regarding lubricity improvers and their effectiveness. These products were purchased at local stores and tested with a sample of locally obtained fuel that did not meet the lubricity specifications. Of several diesel additives out there, there were only 3 that met the specs: Innospec, Amsoil, and Schaeffer.

Schaeffer was the least expensive, of the multi-function additives.

You may want to rethink your stance that the fuel you purchase meets the standard that the EMA requires. The fact is, unless each batch of fuel is tested and given to you for approval, you do not knopw what you are getting.

A truck-puller, Casey Gildesleeve, swears by Schaeffer Soy Shield diesel additive. He runs a very expensive fuel pump in his truck. Every year he tears it down to find no reason to replace anything due to lack of wear.

The military should consider this product also.

The Schaeffer additive, sounds like Biodiesel, except I'm sure the price is at a premium

you would get significant benefits starting around 2% for regular low sulphur

blending would be as easy as topping off with some bio, the SG being slightly higher, will evenly disperse as it drops through

when the temps got too low keeping the "additive" warm is the ticket

this will intrest you.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/2005/050300-concept.htm

I didn't look at all of these:

1. Comparison of Diesel Exhaust Emissions Using JP-8 and Low-Sulfur ... Similar
2. Impact of military JP-8 fuel on heavy-duty diesel engine ...
3. STEYR MOTORS SUCCESFULLY TESTS ON JP8
4. Development of Perovskite Based Diesel Reforming Catalyst for SOFC Similar
5. Comparative Environmental Evaluation of JP-8 and Diesel Fuels ...- Similar
6. Difference between JP8 and diesel - Bob Is The Oil Guy
7. 
   
8. Engine & fuel engineering - Use of Jet fuel in lieu of diesel fuel

No 8 is quite good

My last four years in the Navy were spent on landing craft, specifically LCUs, at Assault Craft Unit One an the Coronado Amphibious Base in Coronado, California. These craft were powered by a pair of 2-stroke 12-71 Detroit diesels, with two 3-71 Detroit diesel generators and one 6-71 Detroit to power the anchor windlass.

Quite frequently, when shipboard, we would refuel the boat with either JP5 or DFM, both of which ran quite nicely. On a deployment from May to October of 1996 on LCU 1616, we ran JP5 almost exclusively for the entire six months without any difficulties that I am aware of. Our boat engineers often commented that the JP5 ran cleaner than diesel.

You might try contacting the Port Engineer at ACU-1 for further guidance on this matter.

I might also add that while working for a crop duster in Aberdeen, South Dakota in the summer of 2008, he ran diesel fuel exclusively in an 1180 hp Pratt & Whitney turbo-prop, though it did in fact generate a great deal more soot than jet fuel would have.

Most military diesel engines are a multi-fuel engine that can burn diesel or jet for extended periods. I never learned what the difference was, but did see identaplates mounted on some support equipment that stated it was suitable for diesel or JP8 fuel.

Drew

I would think that Ford Motor Company would be the final authority on what fuel is acceptable in their engines.

Of the 11 vehicles that have failed, what was the failing component (s)?

From the readings posted, the most sensitive was the GM 6.2 and 6.5 engines. I do not believe the Ford 6.0 is using the Standardyne rotary injector pump.

Ford's 6.0 has not been as durable as their predecessors were. That may have contributed to the high failure rate.

if you dig into Link # 8 in lynlynch's list one poster has hard data that clearly says... lighter hydrocarbon fuels like kersoene, JP-5, and JP-8 are close to diesel in ignition characteristics but lack lubricity. If your Ford 6.0L has a fuel injection system which is sensitive to lack of lubrication, you could see plunger or needle galling/scuffing and end up damaging the fuel system. There is some anecdotal evidence that adding a few percent lubricating oil or 2-stroke oil to a kersoene, will increase the lubricity sufficiently to stave off damage. My guess, as some others said, is that the Ford 6.0L (Navistar) fuel system is just not built for such thin fuel, especially when hot and viscosity drops. Did you have injection system problems? Or was it the engine?

Until we hear more back from the OP, we need to stop guessing. For all we know they may be experiencing transmission problems, alternator failures or cooling system failures.

Bob You're logged on CR4

you must be thinking of some other Forum

No, my point is that we are all trying to resolve the issue of weather JP4 can be used as a substitute for Diesel fuel. but the OP has not posted again. Poster said 11 out of 42 failures, but we have no idea what the nature of the failures were.

Kidding aside

it would be nice to know what country or state Ken is in

the tax man tends to get upset, when road taxes are avoided, Without taxes kerosene & diesel aren't much different in price

Low sulfur diesel fuel has already taken a toll on pump & injector life

I assume the vehicles in question are most probably in a forward operating location that does not get regular shipments of diesel. Much of the military support equipment is designed to run on JP8 so they can have fewer types of fuels, but when contractors bring in civilian vehicles you run into these problems.

OP quote [I am an ASE Master Tech and Instructor with GaTP (Government automotive Training Providers.]

lends me to believe he is the specialist brought in by the contractor or military transportation organization to solve the problem.

Drew's opinion of the original post

This sort of thing interests me- I know a bloke who used fish & chip oil because it was free-2k injector pump life x 2 rebuilds @ $2k ozz ea- no longer use!.-But- now uses sump oil(because it's free)-"smokes a lot,but runs ok once get engine started- getting harder & harder to start!)"- but uses a 24v batt syst to spin motor (12v syst) fast enough to start!. Can't help this type of person- they believe in free energy. over unity, water power etc- in other words they are dreamers!.

Hello Everyone, Thanks to all of the CR4 Members for their input. Some of the Questions arizing form the answers are Vehicles belong to The Turkish Air Force and are being used for flightline support, thay only have Set up Fuel storage for Aircraft, Turboshaft typ JP8 and Gasoline. the vehicles, Pick-ups reciently obtained and are not built for or in Europe. also thay are not built for alternet fuel use. Thay are the same as you would get at your local Ford Dealer. The Europe based contractor sold the vehicles to Turkey with no support and are asking me to train and support the needs. again thank you for all your Support. Ken Humphreys

one way round lubrication problem could be to place a seperate tank with diesel in it t piece it into fuel line then you would get some diesel to lubricate the pump.

Is this a Turkish Air Force base in Turkey? I spent most of two years at Incirlik Air base near Adana, and we had access to diesel on base and off.

I recall when I was in Korea we used JP8 to winterize our diesel but had a rough blend ratio (I think it as 3 jet to 1 diesel) because our service station fueled civilian diesel engines too. You might have the TAF contact the USAF fuels at Incirlik to find out what the T.O. states is the proper blend ratio. I might be able to find that number and tell you who to talk to there. Send me a private message and I will get back to you.

Drew

In your opinion, could the lubrication problems be resolved by adding 1 quart of engine oil to a tank of fuel?

I would say less, it doesn't take much oil to lubricate diesel, you mix in too much and you have cold start problems. There is a book of blend ratios I don't have that will give exact blend ratios for different types of fuel that allow mixing without affecting flashpoint or combustability.

That being said, on the opposite end of the spectrum, a tiny amount of gasoline will ruin a large amount of diesel (or jet fuel).

Drew

Would that be an easier option than custom blending the fuel?

Of course...use the correct fuel as per the manufacturers instructions :)

Having lived in Turkey, I have a bit better understanding of how things are done there. They have some very smart creative mechanics that use experience and intuitive experimentation to achieve desired results. I was consistently impressed at the accomplishments of people with often the incorrect tools for a job getting things done.

But they do sometimes have unrealistic expectations of the capabilities of equipment and things they are not experienced with. There are machines there they have kept running long past when they should have expired and have run without what many would consider regular maintenance. I could see them being surprised when a newer machine they are running the same as they have the old ones does not put up with the treatment.

I look forward to hopefully hearing what the OP does to resolve the problem, if it turns out he is talking about my old base, I might contact an old friend too.

Drew

Hi Drew, Yes Base is in Turkey and the Motor pool Chief has talked with the USAF Base and Thay are using #2 Low Sulfer Diesel only and have no significant problems. Thanks Ken