Get Water From a Well

Under ordinary circumstances, placing someone's avatar in crosshairs would be unsuitably aggressive. However, Gobani1966 regularly denounces this or that as being execrated by Allah (misspelled as "Ala" the first time). Here he raised the phony notion of "enemys" [sic] poisoning a private well.

In defense of the guest, I am astounded at the moral primitivism and political correctness of whichever moderator spiked this post.

Eugene R. "Tornado" Walker

Mullah Gobani, let your "Body Gard" to drink from it first to test it-no simplest than that.

The OP is not well posed.

I guess that the casing at 29' means 29' below the ground surface [?] If so, why does it stop there?

Similarly, I guess the water level at 50' means 50' below the ground surface [?]

Why are these measurements in feet while the others are in meters?

If the bore is 650', why not also the casing?

How would a compressor apply here? It seems that a submersible pump would be suitable.

The casing and delivery pipe sizes would depend on the flow rate of the pump, which was not given.

Is the 600 meters from sea level a horizontal, a vertical, or a slope distance?

What is the desired pressure of water delivery? (Or how high do you need to pump it above ground level?)

Clarification of these points will enable better replies.

A water column 650 feet long will have a pressure of about 300 PSI at the bottom, assuming no external ground water counterpressure.

Thus that is the pressure the pipe must take, with a safety factor and the pressure the pump must produce to just reach the surface.

PVC pipe schedules must be consulted to see what thickness will deal with this pressure.

I assume you have a steel casing that this pipe and pump operate from. Some lift pumps of this type use a long pull cable or rod for power. The mechanical components are very mature and long lasting, far more so than electrical pumps.

Pumps made for this service are also made to be pulled up for maintenance.

As a general rule, No PVC is not acceptable for a 650 foot casing. You could try it, but more than likely when you begin packing and sealing it, the casing will fail and you will end up needing a new well drilled. Plus at the well depth the screens tend to fail more rapidly due to the cyclic flow velocities through the screens, PVC is only used for environmental monitoring wells where the pumps move very low flows.

No, the casing will be steel, the flow pipe could be PVC, but due to the need for a lot greater thickness in PVC. would use up excess space

That is gonna be a special class of PVC pipe then, with a basic qwater column of 650 feet plus the delivery pressure requirements like the minimum 20 psi at the fire hydrants. Operating pressures would be around 350 psi on the conductor pipe, not counting surge pressures. Generally use steel for these pipes also.

The acceptance of a type of pipe will depend on the drawdown levels. If the static level is 50 feet with a drawdown to a hundred feet depth, the pressure on the pipe will only be the limit of the total drawdown, in my example 100 feet. We can then ignore the rest of the depth of the well even if you want to set the pipe at the bottom of the well (some added friction head will still apply). The total head is the 100 feet of drawdown plus the discharge and friction head. You could use more economical piping to then pump water as well as a smaller pump. Steel pipe and a larger pump would be required if the well has a pumping level close to the full depth. If this is a small domestic well then a considerable expense is avoided if the well has a small pumping level. The OP should do the testing if the driller has not a then decide what output he needs. There still remain other viable options with storage and shallow drawdowns.

Dear all

First up all thanks to all for you valuable comments and spent time to answer my thread, now I narrating my bore well details and my site condition once again with drawing.

I have power supply for my open well near around 107 meters (350 feet) away from my bore well. So not able draw the supply from my open well to bore well because, I was failure to get permission from government ( Electricity board).

In this juncture I have to go to buy a portable generator or use renewable source of energy like (solar, wind) but both is not suitable for my site condition. So kindly send your valuable suggestion to use siphon principle as much as possible.

Pl see the below picture of bore well and open well drawing will help to understand clearly and will help to send ur suggestion well.

My bore well Dia is 150mm (6 inch) and depth is 198 mtrs (650') from surface level and bore well drilling people confirmed that 40mm dia free flow water will get it in this bore well by help of pump.

While drilling we got hard rock at 8.8 mtrs (29' feet) from the surface level so we were not able to insert casing pipe (p.v.c) further more. And we got

water stream at 67 mtrs (220' feet)

and 128 mtrs (420' feet) respectively.

But we drilled up to 198 mtrs (650' feet)

for reserving the water in summer (some time our water level will goes below 121 mtrs -400' feet from surface level).

I hope, I provided all details

Please guide me to get water with out use of power (siphon principle) and utilize of open well if need, I can arrange air for pressurizing the well up to 60 psi

Kindly send ur valuable suggestion to over come my threads and also provide details about pipe sizes if possible to get water with out our power.

Regards

v.sidharaj

well, you need to place a pump down the hole. This pump can be operated by electricity or by pushrod.

A wind drive can run a pushrod pump.

http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&safe=off&q=windmill+%2Bpump+%2Bfarm&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=windmill+%2Bpump+%2Bfarm&gs_rfai=&fp=d0629395702ecd5f

Where is the concrete sanitary seal?

Also, if you are using PVC casin only in the upper 25 feet or so, what will be used below ?

What is the water stream in th figure above ?

Maybe you'd refer to sea level?

Unless you drill downwards through a hill you've probably past the water layer.

Prepare for other liquids or gases in this case.

I'm seeing it this way...well is drilled to 650',(top of well is 600 meters above sea level) casing is 29' below the ground , water in the casing is 50' below ground. If you drop a 3/4" flexible pipe about 75 feet down the well, 25' into the water, and run it downhill to an elevation of 570 meters you should be able to start siphoning water out and not need a pump.

Siphon will not work, limited to height equivalent of atmospheric pressure about 28-29 feet raise.

Dear friend

How u arrived 570mtrs down hill that means downwards (570X 3.3 = 1881 feet) or horizontally?

Can u provide the formula for arriving that figure.

Hello v. sidharaj

Your question is somewhat vague. If I understand correctly your well is 650 feet deep with a static level of 50 feet. By static level I mean the level that the water can be found in the well when it is sitting idle or static for an extended period of time. The levels are usually measured from the top of the well to the water level. This would indicate that there is a 600 foot depth of water in the well. What is equally important is the pumping level. The pumping level is determined by pumping the well at a desired rate and observing the drawdown of the water level during the pumping and at the end of the pumping. The rate the well recovers is measured after the pumping test. Well drillers will usually provide this information. A third quality missing is the maximum desired pressure at the well head (or end use).

Knowing these levels and dynamic measures required will impact the pump size and type and pressure of the pipe needed. These can vary tremendously in a 650 foot deep well. The less drawdown in the well, will mean less pipe quality. I suggest you provide the output pressure desired. What us the well diameter? These answers will give us a start to assist your request. You will also need to know the pipe size inside diameter and the length required to calculate friction head.

I would assume 29 feet of casing to mean that the well is cased from the ground surface down to 29 feet. A rock well can be open holed with no casing for the rest of the well depth and is normally not an issue. I will also assume the well is 650 feet deep because that is the depth to the water. Therefore the aquifer is most likely artesian (under hydraulic pressure) and that is why the static level is 50 feet. I do not know what the water quality is like in any specific area of India but some testing may be warranted and will depend on your end use.

If I am misunderstanding your request let us know.

Dear all

First up all thanks to all for you valuable comments and spent time to answer my thread, now I narrating my bore well details and my site condition once again with drawing.

I have power supply for my open well near around 107 meters (350 feet) away from my bore well and depth is around 12 trs (40 feet). So not able draw the supply from my open well to bore well because, I was failure to get permission from government ( Electricity board).

In this juncture I have to go to buy a portable generator or use renewable source of energy like (solar, wind) but both is not suitable for my site condition. So kindly send your valuable suggestion to use siphon principle as much as possible.

Pl see the below picture of bore well and open well drawing will help to understand clearly and will help to send ur suggestion well.

My bore well Dia is 150mm (6 inch) and depth is 198 mtrs (650') from surface level and bore well drilling people confirmed that 40mm dia free flow water will get it in this bore well by help of pump.

While drilling we got hard rock at 8.8 mtrs (29' feet) from the surface level so we were not able to insert casing pipe (p.v.c) further more. And we got

water stream at 67 mtrs (220' feet)

and 128 mtrs (420' feet) respectively.

But we drilled up to 198 mtrs (650' feet)

for reserving the water in summer (some time our water level will goes below 121 mtrs -400' feet from surface level).

I hope, I provided all details

Please guide me to get water with out use of power (siphon principle) and utilize of open well if need, I can arrange air for pressurizing the well up to 60 psi

Kindly send ur valuable suggestion to over come my threads and also provide details about pipe sizes if possible to get water with out our power.

Regards

v.sidharaj

This is not a good idea, it is never good to cross multiple aquitards to allow cross flow between aquifers. this is how contamination from the surface easily transmits to lower aquifers and cross contaminates water supplies, in particular pesticides, nitrates, and fuels are commonly moved vertically through unsealed or multi aquifer well systems.

v.s.

It is not possible to create the siphon with the head presented. You would have to excavate between the dry well and the drilled well to a depth of the overburden material of 29 feet just to be in a range to create a siphon and then contend with back siphoning unless you deepen the shallow storage to below the maximum siphoning of the drilled well. I doubt this is practical or possible for your purposes. Maximum siphon is about 10 meters or 33 feet.

A second alternative is to bring in a small generator and use a small submersible pump to replenish the dug well or storage where you have the power. It is too bad you cannot just extend the power to accommodate your new well. Alas the bureaucracy we all contend.

Aurizon has a suggestion with a wind pump that could be set to replenish your storage as required. Solar power pumps are also available from companies like Grundfos.

I would agree with RCE that crossing aquifers is not always a good idea. Where I live in an area of extensive bedrock, it is common to have multiple aquifers supplying the same well. In fact in most sampled drilled wells we can identify parameters of distinct aquifers. This is generally not a problem unless someone drills too deep in say a saline aquifer that is under artesian pressure and is allowed to flow into a higher aquifer that is of fresh quality. As a former well inspector we have ordered wells sealed in such circumstance. I doubt that surface contamination is an issue with the extensive overburden and rock formation between the surface and first water bearing fracture zone. Testing of the water will reveal issues that would cause you to seal the well to prevent such aquifer cross contamination.

or crosses a polluted aquifer near the surface with deeper cleaner aquifers, common for nitrates, salts, fuels and pesticides to occur in first encountered groundwater. Also there are the aquifers next to arsenic containing aquitards to consider, as the arsenic can then migrate through out the profile since pumps tend to cause some mixing in the well column and allow waters from other depths in the column to migrate into differnt aquifers. Also, wells that cross aquifers are excellent means by which DNAPLs, like TCE and PCE, move downwards through the aquitards to rapidly cross contaminate multiple aquifers.

I am less concerned with the well cased to 29 feet and cross contamination of aquifers as you seem. A well drilled in a known contaminated area would receive consideration of more casing. However in this case, the first water was encountered at 218 feet (170+29+19) and the second water from a fracture zone at 450 feet (218+232). There is a dry 40 foot well nearby that indicates the unconsolidated zone is dry. The downward migration of potential contamination is very low in this situation. I suspect that the upper water at 218 is of marginal yield as was the water at 450 feet. This finding of water from multiple zones is common everywhere and includes most of eastern Canada and midwest USA. Why else would a driller continue to drill except to complete his function of getting a good water supply. To simply add casing to shut out water bearing fractures may be detrimental to the ability of the well to produce sufficient water.

I will add that the cased and proper grouting of annular spaces is the most expensive and critical portion of drilling in regulated areas. For a six inch well the first drilling would have to be 8 inches to accommodate the casing. The annular space should be grouted from the bottom up and is very costly procedure. I would expect that most areas in Canada and USA the cost would be about $48.00 per foot of cased and grouted annular space (includes 8 inch open hole plus casing and grouting). Open hole drilling on the other hand is $20.00 per foot in rock. To case a rock well its full length is costly and would likely result in poor yield. It should also be added that the driller does not always know when he will hit water. The casing and grouting should be completed before open hole drilling begins. Remember this is only a six inch well for domestic use. The well is already a great expense.

If the water quality is such that the upper zone exhibits industrial contamination then that portion of the well can sometimes be sealed off with packers or the well can be abandoned after completing a sealing procedure.

I do confess to not knowing water quality issues in India. Arsenic may well be a problem and should be tested as should a host of other parameters. I do know that it is expensive and hard to get reliable results from labs in India as I have had some dealing in that regard. Again my experience is limited and there may be some great labs in India. I am not sure of the accreditation for these labs and suspect it is not what we normally find in NA. I have had many occasions to question lab results in both Canada and USA.

Casings are installed after drilling an open hole or are driven or pushed in some cases behind the drill bit, not before. Well production casings typically are installed down open holes with an annular space, and screened through the production depth intervals. Then a permeable packing around the production zones identified during drilling is installed at those depths, and in a good production well a bentonite seal is installed at zones that need to be sealed off, like shallow aquifers and polluted aquifers, and across aquitards. The bentonite seal should be extended to above the water table a few feet, then a sanitary seal installed usually of concrete, though adding a little bentonite performs better as a seal. As you indicated this is more of the proper procedure in areas where they have and enforce regulations to protect water quality and beneficial uses. This implies it is likely proper procedure for a long productive well,but you can get away with something else when no one is looking.So in many third world low population density countries it may be deemed to costly and there is no risk of enforcement. However, in a high density 2nd world one like india it should be used as there is a higher risk of anthropogenic sources polluting the aquifer, and one of the most common conduits to the aquifer for pollutants are poorly constructed wells. I see this all the time on agricultural facilities, wastewater facilities and remediation sites. We see pollutants showing up around old wells, particularly old residential wells, in the monitored region/area. In those cases, since we have to report our results to the State, when we do discover unusual pollutants and back track the source to a well, the State will usually send something like a order for the owner to investigate the discharge and resolve it, which can lead to a remediation case opening and potentially ( as one family found when they let lead from the lead acid electrolyte, when recovering lead battery cells, get down along their residential well casing into the aquifers) lose their property for clean-up and be charged for the action. $20 versus $48 per foot, versus $4 million or more, spend the extra to build a standard sealed production well.

Actually in California, you are also required to install a concrete sanitary seal for water producting wells and they have regulations to preclude crossing wells screenings across major aquitards identified in some portions of the State like the Corcoran clay formation. There are DWR regulations against, and have been for many years, screening wells across the Corcoran clay aquitard. Old wells still exist that cross the formation, but no new wells can be constructed that cross that formation (though the well drillers are responsible of reporting such).

On top of this, each Counties' Environmental Health Department is responsible for enforcing local regulations that exceed State Law, so in manny counties they require a report and/or a to deal with any contaminated layers to isolate them (dpeends on the quality of the EHD staff, knowledge of aquifer quality, and the use of the well). Some wells are high in nitrates or salts and get blended in the distribution system, but in the majority of counties drilling a well that allows cross contamination in the aquifers for the sake of blending is illegal.

The rules in Ontario Canada are very similar to California's rules. Similar rules exist in very many jurisdictions. When I mentioned the two aquifers that had distinct water quality issues with nitrate or Uranium, that was a very extreme example of a bad practice. There is actually two wells involved; one shallow and one deep. I am not an advocate of the mixing to dilute each other problems and I know that the water is tested very frequently. The cross contamination of each aquifer is clearly prohibited by regulation. I don't believe we are arguing anything different. The only issue I have is with wells drilled in a uniform geological formation and water is encountered at different levels (maybe like Vareen's well). This water can have subtle differences but many drillers drill to encounter multiple fracture zones to meet quantity issues. It is not illegal in most areas.Many times the only way a suitable supply can be obtained is by such drilling. If a problem is known to occur then such problem can be addressed.

However, the crossing of aquifers, does raise issues of sampling and the ability of field staff to undertake such sampling. What parameters are tested and how frequent (when the well is first completed, when property changes hands, seasonal, etc) are also in issue for private rural wells. Some jurisdictions mandate certain testing such as bacteria, arsenic, and nitrates. But we both know that there can be a whole host of other issues that may need testing (heavy metals, nutrients, methane, radioactive isotopes, radon, etc). There is a requirement for some training of samplers and levels of knowledge for the interpretation but it is not uniform. I think that discussion is best left for another thread. You have provided good comments about crossing aquifers and suspect you would be a good contributor in such a thread dealing in water testing of private wells.

actually, outside of potable water and some specific applications like dairies, arsenic is not tested as frequently as organics like pesticides and fuels. 8260/8270 build whole analytical labs devoted almost solely to those. Particularly in the less regulated very rural areas. I sometimes think most people would be extremely surprised to find out how many organic pollutants were in the shallow aquifer and what the source or conduits into the aquifer was.

Your biggest problem is going to be in the summer when the water level falls to 400' below the top of the well. I agree with Kevinm about siphoning to over to a holding cistern the top of which is the same level as the deep well. It won't work. (I was picturing a hilly landscape.)

Putting air pressure into the deep well with a cap and small pipe running to the storage well will probably not work as it will just force water back into one of the layers of water.

Water pumps generally push water a lot better than they pull water so putting a pump at the storage well might work when water levels are high but will certainly not work when the water level is 400' down in the summer.

VERY DEEP WELLS with water level down the hole more than 230 feet from the surface need a higher power pump. The Grundfos SQ Flex submersible pumps are AC or DC powered (battery, inverter, or PV direct) and can lift more than 600 feet. Or a 240 volt AC submersible pump might be used to fill a large tank once a week operating on generator power, or a large inverter and transformer, or two large inverters.

http://www.us.grundfos.com/web/Download.nsf/Pages/2B19EAAF8C0C8AFF88256B830056B6A7/$File/L-SQ-SL-010.pdf

Model #6 SQF-3 Helical Rotor will lift 820 ft @ 6 gal/min on solar panels.

You are going to have to put the pump near the bottom of the well.

Dear all

My bore well was drilled during summer, so there is quesion to water level will go below 400'.My bore well purpose is going to use only for augriculture purpose not for drinking.

In india there is no peoblem for any aursenic ( no restriction to i want to do i can do in my land)

Second point : there was a lake in near to my land( aroud 200mtrs) and the rain water is being stagnated over there so i hope my bore well will not in summer.

Now guide me what to do.

Regards

Not sure how cold it gets there but this is a chart for how many gallons per day cows need.How many cows are you talking about?

You are going to need between 11&16 gallons a day for lactating cows, between 6&14 gallons for heiffers a day, and between 7&18 gallons per day for bulls.

Depends on how hot it is, more when it is hot, less when it is cold.

If it is just water for rangeland cattle there isn't much for requirements generally with regards to water quality, if it is for lactating cows, there are typically a few quality restriction on the water used for wash and/or cattle consumption prior to milking. Arsenic would actually occur at depth as it occurs in natural marine deposited clay aquitards. E coli and coliform bacteria are another consideration, as is nitrates (and well any toxics that can be conveyed to the milk). The lake probably has some fine-grained lacustrine deposits that reduce infiltration allowing the water to warm up and stagnate, this is far less common in groundwaters (though it can occur locally in geologic depressions in the aquiclude, the water tends to get saline due to migration of salts into the depression). You need to calculate the number of cattle to be serve, maximum day demand to maximum hour demand, depending on short duration storage capacity. Add losses for evaporation and any other exfiltration losses. This is the maximum supply rate the well must regenerate over that period of time (day/hour). If you use watering tanks, you will need to calculate how long the storage capacity of the tank is during the peak day or peak hour demands depending on sizing. your pumping capacity has to complement your water tank storage in providing supplies to meet maximum demands. so your demand might be something like 16 gallons a day for each head, losses might be a leakage estimate depending on system design and evaporation. You might want capacity to store water for about 8 hours for maximum number of head for peak day demand plus losses), and you pump should supply at Peak day demand (plus losses) and a SF (depending on precision of estimates, construction, operational life cycle, long term estimates of system changes in losses related to O&M, and other variable factors).

There is a well pump that works off of an air compressor. It is made in Australia and used on livestock farms there. It is called the Brumby Pump and can pump from deep wells where the water is low.

http://www.brumbypumps.com/products

Here's a presentation on how they work.

http://www.brumbypumps.com/files/1277656/uploaded/index.html

I do not have either water or electricity in my area. How come to run the air compressor ?

If you have no electricity then you will have to use a solar powered or wind powered pump.

What are the longitude and latitude of the location of the well?

Or like most farmers could use a diesel engine.

Yes, diesel...or just hook a cow up to a rotary pump. Lots of ways to do it.

http://www.villagevolunteers.org/PDFs/Travel%20Documents/Projects%20Library/Agriculture/Hand%20Powered%20Water%20Pumps.pdf

Yes this is a good pump for my need.

Thanks

glad to help you.

After Gobani1966 spoke in post 1 of well-poisoning (and a few weird posts in other threads), post 2 (subsequently deleted) pictured Gobani1966's avatar in crosshairs.

In post 7, I defended poster 2, which resulted in this further PM exchange:

Gobani1966 to Tornado:

my friend

what is your mail address

i want to send you a special gift

My reply:

I would not be willing to release such personal information unless you explain a bit more about what you have in mind.

It occurs to me that you might send me a copy of the Qur'an. I do not know much Arabic, but I already have the Qur'an in two English translations, as well as Thomas Cleary's book, The Essential Koran.

On the other side of such questions, I also have Why I Am Not a Muslim, by Ibn Warraq (a pseudonym for a former Muslim from Egypt).

[No further response thus far.]

***

What think ye?

Probably Gobani666's spesial gift is.........."""Bomb"".......... in mail box.

You can read also a good book:

http://www.amazon.com/Coffee-Prophet-Mark-Gabriel/dp/0615207286

Thanks! That sounds like a delightful read, and I plan on ordering it.

If I were writing it, I would probably call it "A Beer with the Prophet," thereby garnering a few fatwas. (Off to the hideout with Salman Rushdie?)

on this farm we have dug 3 wells Oct-Nov 2009. the driller said the best was the one meant for our residence, which had 18 feet of overburden. below this was solid granite. therefore we had to pay for only 20 feet of steel casing. explained to me solid rock on most cases prevents less ideal surface water from mixing with deep pure water. [most times]

is this water for occasional use, [as in animal watering, domestic ] or continous pumping, as in crop irrigation ?

of the 3 wells dug here, 1 is for domestic now that it failed to achieve 225 litres per minute for crop irrigation. would only be able to deliver half that.

the 2 nd failed due to steel casing split. but would have met the 225 litres per minute at 40 PSi for 9 sprinkler heads.

the 3 rd is 880 feet deep with static head at 230 feet. with a hp submersible pump able to deliver 225 litres of water at 50 psi[?]. at 260 feet pump location. this was used for 8 days , 10-12 hrs a day, driven by 1954 nuffield tractor, driving 30 year old "winpower" 230 VAC . driving pump only. [too far from permanent power source ] I don't know if this is any help or not.

I hope you resolve this to your satisfaction.