Snowmachiner's Avalanche Survival System

Just a thought how about a vest with pull cord that would expand on the chest. That could keep the head in position as the victim is being tossed around. With a bleed off around the face. The compressed gas of course would be oxygen or air highly concentrated with O2. As the snow comes to rest the bleeding off of the oxygen would provide air . As the device deflates would give the victim the necessary room for breath. Activation of the device would set off your signal. Though they all ready have devices for locating victims of an avalanche. Most of the manufacture of up scale sporting goods already provide on their gear.

A similar sort of airbag/jacket has been designed for motorcyclists, shock activated or with a ripcord attached to the bike if you part company from the bike the jacket inflates and you bounce down the road (sort of).

Today I heard there is some survival unit on the market. Apparently expands almost instantaneously to create space around victim. No details yet. Innsbruck Austria hospital published data on 105 avalance victims. Provides some basis for a design perhaps.

Why interfere with Darwinism?

Agreed - let Darwin prevail!

Snowmobiles take people where they would never go otherwise - especially the ones with big backsides and I have seen too many.

The ones willing to spend the effort would still make it but that may be 1% of the snowmobiler population.

Mankind has separated itself from animals by the use of tools, appliances, contrivances, and other mechanical aids. Such a protective device is appropriate to this environment. Would you be suggesting that people go underwater without SCUBA gear, or into space without a spacesuit? (or to your inlaws without alchol?)

This process of inventing protective equipment is part of our creative journey. If it is developed, and someone chooses not to use it.... that is just as much 'darwinism'.

The first Darwin Award I ever heard was the story of the guy mounting an aerial on an 80 foot tower... (not a natural place either for a human)

Chris

Common sense and education informs a backcountry traveler which areas are prone to avalanches. Most snowmachine avalanches are triggered by insufficient discretion (bravado, daring, etc.). There is plenty of fun to be had for the suitably cautious. There is limited protection to be offered by current technology under the best of circumstances.

I'm all for using tools to allow us to explore and be adventurous, but this is a case where we wander too far into the danger zone. It's a bit like expecting your SCUBA gear to sustain you below 200'.

Were you born in a hospital? With all it's technology. Maybe that was a mistake in that it may have contradicted your desires toward Darwinism. Mankind has always explored his environment hazards or not. If one wishes to do so recreational or not. It would be maybe your Darwinist outlook if they didn't use what technology available to preserve life or limb.

Can't even go underwater (for long) without breathing apparatus and can't fly without wings but you can hike into the back country. Snowshoes do work.

I have seen too many beautiful areas under the sea destroyed by inconsiderate tourists.

I have seen where snowmobilers have chased animals in the snow and destroyed habitat by compacting the snow where is loses insulating value.

Of road bikes and ATV's are another offender - taking many where they would never go on their own as it would require effort and making a fantastic mess.

In all cases I have seen the trash left behind by inconsiderates.

http://www.invention.net/beck.htm

any use

theres a beacon for finding people who are buried in snow,

http://www.ski-adventure-guide.com/emergencysurvivalkit.html

you are a great researcher. ga.

thanks

i think a life jacket sort of device along with a rebreather for long oxygen use, coupled with a radio locator and possible coloured flare for location possibly re use of an air bag as used in a car ? to create a space between the persons chest and the snow when the avalance has subsided the air bag collapses leaving a space between the person and the snow to breath,

http://www.divegearexpress.com/rebreathers/oxygensensor.shtml

http://www.draeger.co.uk/UK/en/products/personal_protection/productSelector.action?root=10052337&cat=10052388&page=1&lang=en&size=12&layout=m-resultview1&selections[0]=10052398&selections[1]=10052470&cid=global&hash=0#e1280877310968

http://www.premchemltd.com/Runtime/SodaLime.aspx?pid=MgA=&sid=NwAxAA==&gclid=CKPutMC4nqMCFdWX2AodW3FOsA

http://shop.lifejackets.co.uk/acatalog/Lifejacket_Fishing_Angling_Lifejacket.html

I believe I kicked off this discussion. So I'll say that I am encouraged that opinions, ideas, information is coming in. Although I'm an engineer (career related to fluids primarily & the geologic realm) it will be really tough for me to find any time to work on this, at least for foreseable future. However, I had it on my mind for some time---a CEO of a very rich global energy company had his life erased this past winter here a few miles from my house. I think I live in a really accident-prone region (per capita) here in Alaska. 3 big aircraft accidents in past weeks destroyed quite a number of people around here, including air force c17 jet last week. So anyway, I see there is an argument some people use that goes like "the kind of guys that tempt fate on snowmachines pitted against mountainsides of wet snow don't have any regard for their safety anyway, so why waste your time on any engineering.....?" (a nurse in Calgary Canada). Then there's plenty others who are in favor of developing a good survival unit if at all possible. I would expect it's almost next to impossible for the suit to guarantee survival in 100% cases, but I'm thinking it can succeed in 95% of cases, since we have all seen the impossible accomplished in our lifetimes in medicine, engineering, rocketry, atomic energy, the list is very big. So I encourage you all to continue...

M.G.,

I like these sorts of design centric problem threads..I think that we need to generate a very specific set of criteria. Based on the statistics shown, it would seem that snowmobile riders are the first design problem.

The first idea that comes to mind for that is a strong but detachable canopy for the snowmobile, for mountain use where avalanche is a possibility..

but I hate to get ahead of myself... I still think more data needs to be gathered regarding the actual conditions that are being experienced, and what must be defended against or prevented.

What is the cause of the avalanche?
How much time elapses when the avalanche starts, and the rider becomes aware?
How long before rescue teams reach the rider?
How do rescue teams know that someone is in trouble?

Chris

My next door neighbor is "mr walking danger", as he flies his own 200 mph plane, snowmachines, drives in demolition derbies, etc etc. He tells me a survival suit is on the market- from what he says, it would be vastly different from what I would want to see. Yes, there is some data on victims. Innsbruck Austria hospital has thoroughly investigated (includes autopsys) on 105 victims. 92% death due to asphyxia; only 5% due to trauma(not sure how trauma is defined); ......Hohlrieder M, Brugger, H., Schubert HM, Pavlic M, Ellerton J, Mair P (Innsbruck Austria I think, check the web). Good data to start with. More is probably needed.

Avalanche snow isn't light and fluffy, it's more like roadside snow that's been plowed. It sets up because of the friction-induced melting. Some survivors get through by thrashing a breathing space before their surroundings solidify. If you've been tumbled, you may not know which way is up. If you get carried into trees, you can of course be badly beaten as well as suffocated (that's the trauma cited by the Albertville hospital).

The majority of people who die in avalanches are simply exercising insufficient caution and wisdom.

You have a very good idea which areas are avalanche-prone simply by looking. Though there is a range of slope with a sweet spot at 38 deg. (I think), if there are trees on a slope it's not very avalanche-prone. A basic knowlege of snowpack conditions also helps you know how dangerous your planned activity is. New snow over old is trouble. Heavy snow on recent heavy snow is trouble. If you let the snowpack settle for a couple days, it's safer. But wind can pack snow into precarious shapes.

What is the cause of the avalanche?
Many avalanches are spontaneous, but the ones that trap people tend to be people-triggered, usually by applying force to a fragile snowpack but a very minor disturbance like noise has been known to cause slides.

How much time elapses when the avalanche starts, and the rider becomes aware?
It's usually clear very quickly that you're in trouble. You have little time to save yourself and need luck to get out of the snow's way. Trying to outrun it is usually futile, but there is such a thing as "riding it out."

How long before rescue teams reach the rider?
Widely variable. Even if someone's with you and watches you get buried, they may not find you in time. Well-equipped experts might find you in a small number of minutes, or might never find you.

How do rescue teams know that someone is in trouble?

Sometimes rescue teams probe a slide area because someone saw someone in the area just before the slide. If someone didn't see you get buried in snow, you might not be found until Spring.

thank you for the informative answers. ga.

I've been thinking of an tubular frame backpack, that has small rockets/flares & fluorescent colored strings attached. If you have 30 seconds before being overwhelmed by the avalanche, then wait 20, and fire the rocket. Rescuers can see the flare, and then follow the string to find you. (hopefully you have your rebreather on.)

Chris

I ain't firing nothing if I'm buried in an avalanche. You're buried, and there's little possibility of moving your body in any useful fashion. Further, the rocket is likely to burn/boil you alive because it won't go anywhere.

I'm led to understand that the setting up of the snow starts quickly, as in less than ten seconds once it stops moving. Consider the snow you throw from your shovel, how it behaves. Thrash immediately if you can, in other words.

Your idea of a streamer is very interesting however. If a mechanism to trigger the streamer(s) can be devised, it could be very helpful in finding you. It should be a very light-weight material (like crepe paper), because it could get wrapped around your neck or other fragile body part, then around a tree, or simply the weight of settling snow could tighten it. But then, if it's too light, the action of the avalanche could shred it and make finding you harder.

you could also fire a coloured powder into the air this would stain the snow and show the area you were caught in true it might be moved as the snow flows but it would point to a much smaller search area.

powder or paint or plastic bb's... and their separation would give an indication of the speed (relative to snow nearby) at the time of ejection.

I like it. ga.

"I ain't firing nothing if I'm buried in an avalanche."

ya, it has a small air chamber you insert in your "Avalanche Signal System"... then when you recognize you are about to be overwhelmed, your autonomic nervous system signals a response almost before your brain realizes what is going on.. very fast...

Colored dye of your choice, capsules to chow for your "Bigger Intestinal Gadget" "Avalanche Signal System"

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Hohlrieder+M%2C+Brugger%2C+H.%2C+Schubert+HM%2C+Pavlic+M%2C+Ellerton+J%2C+Mair+P+(Innsbruck+Austria&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GZEU_en&redir_esc=&ei=MCFZTO7cKoP20wSk3OHbCA

revels the below

1. Pattern and severity of injury in avalanche victims. by M Hohlrieder - 2007 - Cited by 15 - Related articles
   Hohlrieder M, Brugger H, Schubert HM, Pavlic M, Ellerton J, Mair P. Department of ... Innsbruck, Innsbruck, Austria. matthias.hohlrieder@i-med.ac.at In ...
   www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17394418 - Similar
2. Mair Peter[au] - PubMed Result 11: Hohlrieder M, Brugger H, Schubert HM, Pavlic M, Ellerton J, Mair P. Pattern and severity of injury in avalanche victims. High Alt Med Biol. ...
   www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Mair+Peter%5Bau%5D
3. i-med: List of Publications - List of Publications - Innsbruck ... Hohlrieder, M., Brugger, H., Schubert, HM., Pavlic, M., Ellerton, J., Mair, P., HIGH ALTITUDE MEDICINE & BIOLOGY: 2007; 8: P. 56-61 ...
   www.i-med.ac.at/apps/publikationen.xsp.en?id=intensiv&page=2 - Cached
4. i-med: Publikationsliste - Publikationsliste - Medizinische ... Hohlrieder, M., Brugger, H., Schubert, HM., Pavlic, M., Ellerton, J., Mair, P., HIGH ALTITUDE MEDICINE & BIOLOGY: 2007; 8: S. 56-61 ...
   www.i-med.ac.at/apps/publikationen.xsp.de?id=intensiv&page=2 - Cached
5. APPROXIMATELY 100 TO 150 PEOPLE die each by M Hohlrieder - 2007 - Cited by 15 - Related articles
   3Austrian Mountain Rescue Service, Klagenfurt, Austria. ... 5Institute of Legal Medicine, Medical University Innsbruck, Innsbruck, Austria. ... Hohlrieder, Matthias, Hermann Brugger, Heinrich M. Schubert, Marion Pavlic, John Ellerton, and Peter Mair. ..... H. Brugger, P. Paal, M. Hohlrieder, G. Sumann. 2008. ...
   www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/ham.2006.0815 - Similar
6. The impact of avalanche rescue devices on survival - Elsevier In Austria, data is collected by the Austrian Board for Mountain Safety, Innsbruck, Austria. ..... The authors thank Stephanie Thaler, Innsbruck Medical University, ... 11 M. Hohlrieder, H. Schubert, H. Brugger, M. Pavlic and P. Mair, ... 14 J. Schweizer and G. Krusi, Testing the performance of avalanche ...
   linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0300-9572(07)00305-X
7. Prognostic factors in avalanche resuscitation: A systematic review ... by J Boyd - 2010 - Related articles
   d Innsbruck Medical University, Innsbruck, Austria ..... 4 M. Hohlrieder, H. Brugger, H.M. Schubert, M. Pavlic, J. Ellerton and P. Mair, ... 19 E. Kornberger and P. Mair, Important aspects in the treatment of severe accidental ...
   linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S030095721000136X
8. HERMANN BRUGGER - research profile on BiomedExperts Geographic Areas. Austria ... 2007: Paal P; von Goedecke A; Brugger H; Niederklapfer T; Lindner K H; Wenzel V ... 2007: Paal Peter; Ellerton John; Sumann Günther; Demetz Florian; Mair Peter; Brugger Hermann ... 2007: Hohlrieder Matthias; Brugger Hermann; Schubert Heinrich M; Pavlic Marion; Ellerton John; Mair Peter ...
   www.biomedexperts.com/Profile.../HERMANN_BRUGGER - Cached - Similar
9. Gerichtsmedizin Innsbruck | Publications Index Pattern and severity of injury in avalanche victims. Hohlrieder,M.; Brugger,H.; Schubert,H.M.; Pavlic,M.; Ellerton,J.; Mair,P.; ...
   gerichtsmedizin.at/publications.html?jahr=2007 - Cached
10. Papers by Mair P | Labmeeting Papers authored by Mair P. ... The pediatric mechanical circulatory support program in Innsbruck, Austria, and the impact of such programs on lack of donor ...
    www.labmeeting.com/papers/author/mair-p - Cached

1. Information For your Research
2. HowStuffWorks "Avalanches: The Science of Snow Disasters" 28 Nov 2005 ... Surviving an Avalanche: If You're the Victim. Photo courtesy National Park Service Most victims are buried in the debris in the avalanche ...
   science.howstuffworks.com ›
3. Avalanche Safety -- How to Survive an Avalanche Let experts teach you avalanche safety. The following websites are excellent sources to learn more about the power of avalanches and tips for surviving, ...
   adventuretravel.about.com/.../survivingadventuretravel/.../avalanches.htm
4. Tips For Surviving An Avalanche - Denver Weather News Story - KMGH ... Tips For Surviving An Avalanche. With every snow storm, avalanche danger increases in Colorado's high country. February and March are typically the months ...
   www.thedenverchannel.com/weather/2831678/detail.html
5. [PDF] Merging theory and practice to increase your odds of surviving ... File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat
   by K Birkeland
   granular flow, swimming, and surviving avalanches. I started by calling granular flow expert Michel Louge from Cornell, and he gave me some valuable ...
   www.fsavalanche.org/NAC/.../08_TAR_BirkelandBarteltMeiners.pdf
6. Howstuffworks "Fact or Fiction: Surviving an Avalanche" How much do you know about surviving an avalanche? Take the avalanche survival quiz to find out.
   adventure.howstuffworks.com/survive-avalanche-quiz.htm
7. Videos for surviving avalanche

   Lucky to be Alive - surviving an avalanche ... 5 min - 1 Mar 2009 Uploaded by tmtvbctv www.youtube.com

   ksl.com - Teens talk about surviving Brighton ... 8 Jan 2009 www.ksl.com

that is an avalanche of info.. it will take a while to get through... ga.

Avalanche survival techniques over lap with survival tehniques used in :

1. Blunt and compressive force trauma scenarios and

2. Cold water immersion survival technigues

The goals in the two methods still take into account survival in the first hour (the so called "golden" hour) with ABC's of survival and survival after the "golden" hour which focuses on stabilization and rescue. The Ava-lung is one such device currently marketed for immediate survival with the ABC's(Airway, Breathing and Circulation).