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Meteorology Question

09/04/2010 11:05 AM

Edit:

Quick question,

  1. In these type pictures, are the BROWN colored layers DRY air i.e., NO WATER vapor?
  2. Are these the layers that the meteorologists discuss as keeping the TS and TD's from gaining strength?
  3. Can these ( brown) layers STEER the TS and TD's?

So many years living down here and I seldomed paid attention to the images like this. Now I want to know more about what actually steers and feeds these big ol' storms. Never too late to educate yourself and THIS is the place to get answers.

Yes, its off topic and not engineering related. But I have a serious question and my friends on here will forgive me for the faux pas......

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#1

Re: Meteorology Question

09/04/2010 11:15 AM

Your image doesn't appear. Can you download it to your PC, and re-post from there?

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#2

Re: Meteorology Question

09/04/2010 11:20 AM

OOOoops!

Let me try this again.

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#3

Re: Meteorology Question

09/04/2010 11:23 AM

These areas in BROWN............

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#5
In reply to #3

Re: Meteorology Question

09/04/2010 6:12 PM

Image works - thanks. But I'm afraid I stand along with Milo - I can't help with an answer.

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#4

Re: Meteorology Question

09/04/2010 4:19 PM

This is certainly appropriate query / post for the general Section.

I regret I can't provide answer.

Milo

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#6

Re: Meteorology Question

09/04/2010 6:40 PM

I tried to find a legend for GOES water vapor loop you show, the only information I could find concerning the colors is here: http://www.goes.noaa.gov/enhanced.html

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#8
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Re: Meteorology Question

09/04/2010 10:00 PM

I tend to think it is what they call dry air now that I have studied some of the other images. I am just not sure if that is what keeps the hurricanes from growing larger.

Sooner or later someone with a meteorologoical background will stumble in on this thread.

Thank you.

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#10
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Re: Meteorology Question

09/04/2010 10:28 PM

Thank you. There are so many images and all of them have some kind of acronym behind them. I am just looking for a simple layman's explanation of the images.

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#7

Re: Meteorology Question

09/04/2010 6:43 PM

netmaker,

You don't give the type of weather image - there are several different types of sensor used and simple or composite images are generated to look at weather systems in different ways. That includes IR, visible, topographic etc. and combinations of the above. See the list for example on this index page.

I usually look at the IR image, like this one, similar to what you posted. Notice at the bottom, the color scale is given for temperature. The "eye" of a storm is generally very cold: orange, red or nearly black. Set the selection back 24 or 48 hours and watch Hurricane Earl unfurl up the east coast. The grey, orange and red colors are temperatures below zero and they are correlated with moisture laden systems for sure. On these maps the temperatures above zero are shades of green - probably what is represented in the brown on your image. Whether that is an exact match for "dry" I wouldn't be too sure.

You can also see Earl in the "visible" satellite image if you replay from 48 hours. The data is a bit patchy, but you can see there's a lot more "cloud" stuff happening than what is contrasted in IR. On the basis of comparing the two, I would say, if your image is a 'visible' type, then the brown is cloud-free or dry, but if it's a IR type image, then the brown area is warm not actually dry.

Also I don't recognize the abbreviations TS and TD - what do they stand for?

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#9
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Re: Meteorology Question

09/04/2010 10:26 PM

The images came from STORM PULSE .

TS is Tropical Storm

TD is Tropical Depression

I am just looking for an explanation on some of the images and forecasts that are given.

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#11
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Re: Meteorology Question

09/05/2010 12:59 AM

The Link helps a lot!

Hopefully this image will appear larger the the originals (BTW, the image DID appear in the original post for me (on a Mac using Firefox). If you look at the lower right of the image, you can see the interpretation of the colors. Clearly the light brown is the low end of the scale, meaning drier air. It is unfortunate that they don't provide units or numbers. One logical interpretation would be 0% RH at the left and 100% RH at the right, but since Relative Humidity is highly temperature dependent, it could be some other unit such as grams per cubic meter.

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#12
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Re: Meteorology Question

09/05/2010 11:28 AM

Aha, now I see it is water vapour that's being imaged. So the brown areas are obviously the dry air, as netmaker suggested.

I know that hurricanes and other storm systems pick up strength when passing over warm water. They usually lose intensity over land, and also over cold water, (which is why hurricanes are no more than tropical storms when they get to Newfoundland.) This suggests that the strength of the storm system comes from sucking up warm water vapour rising by convection, whereas warm dry air rising from the land does not feed the system: they always lose strength over land. Warm air will rise, so dry warm air over land is creating some currents that might affect the motion of the system as suggested by the OP - I don't know how strong an effect that would be.

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#15
In reply to #12

Re: Meteorology Question

09/05/2010 4:08 PM

At 20 °C and 101.325 kPa, dry air has a density of 1.2041 kg/m3. (Wikipedia)

By w=mg (f=ma for gravity) The weight of 1 m3 of the above dry air is 9.80 N/kg* 1.2041 kg/m3= 11.80 Newtons, or 2.65 pounds.

From Hyperphysics,

The saturated vapor pressure of water @ 20°C is 17.54 mmHg, and the saturated vapor density of water is 17.3 g/m3. The 101.325 kPa is 760mmHg, so saturated air @ 20°C is 17.54/760 = 0.0231 =2.31% water molecules, and consequently 97.69% air molecules (by partial pressures of gasses).

97.69% of 1204.1 g/m3 is 1176 g/m3. (the mass of dry air in one cubic meter of saturated air at one atmosphere pressure, note conversion from kg to g)

The total mass of the cubic meter of saturated air is 1176 +17.3 =1193.6 g/m3, and the weight of the cubic meter of saturated air is 1.1936 kg*9.80N/kg = 11.70 N (note conversion back to kg).

Thus there is a net force upward of 11.8-11.7 = 0.1N on 1.194kg of the saturated air due to dry air elsewhere. The upwards acceleration of the air due to this weight difference is a=f/m=0.1/1.194=0.084m/sec2.

By v=vi+at, an initially stationary cubic meter of this air given this acceleration for one hour would have an upward velocity of 0+0.084m/sec2 * 3600 sec = 300 m/s, or 671mi/hr (which partly explains how it is possible to create large hailstones).

Of course this is a greatly simplified set of calculations compared to reality, but it should be a good starting point.

Another large force is generated when the humid air is cooled by rising to higher altitude and lower pressure, where the water condenses from vapor back to liquid, occupying roughly 1/2000 of its former volume, creating a significant partial vacuum...

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#16
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Re: Meteorology Question

09/05/2010 4:36 PM

GA, dkwarner. The vapour pressure figures and the acceleration factor make it clear where the power of these systems is coming from, and the math of accelerating rising air is a good match for the majesty that we see unfolding in satellite images! wow. (hail, your majesty).

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#13
In reply to #11

Re: Meteorology Question

09/05/2010 3:19 PM

You can toggle between the water vapor loop and the RH (relative humidity) loop and see that they correspond, but you would think there would be a legend for the color scale.

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#14

Re: Meteorology Question

09/05/2010 3:28 PM

It all makes sense now. The BROWN is dry air and that is what the meteorologists suggest keeps the storms from growing in intensity.

It just took me a little while to grasp the images. Thank you all, its why I always come here to this forum for my answers.

Lets hope the BROWN stays in place until the GOM itself cools down enough to not feed these monsters.

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