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Join Date: Oct 2009
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Pine Oil + Sulfonic Acid

09/14/2010 4:17 AM

We make jel detergent (floor cleaner and disinfectant) by mixing pine oil with neutralized (with caustic soda solution) linear alkyle sulfonic acid (LABSA). I do not know the physical or chemical reactions occure during mixing so I have no control over gel formation. We face lot of problems making this gel. Sometimes it is stable gel some times, collapse of no reason someimes affected by temperature change and the gel do not accept any type of fillers like cmc or alike to improve its strength. Can any body tells about the nature of this gel, how to make it stabilized and is this gel has properties of disifectance beside cleaning property as we claim.

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#1

Re: Pine Oil + Sulfonic Acid

09/14/2010 8:41 AM

Do you have a lab available to you? I would run small-scale controlled production runs in the lab. Then figure out how and when conditions in the plant process are changing and/or deviating from successful lab runs.

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#3
In reply to #1

Re: Pine Oil + Sulfonic Acid

09/15/2010 6:01 AM

I apperciate your effort, but there is no proper lab. If you could describe test procedure I would manage test in 3rd party lab.

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Anonymous Poster #1
#15
In reply to #1

Re: Pine Oil + Sulfonic Acid

07/20/2019 2:51 PM

Someone gave me this formulation, I don't know if it can work using. pine oil, NP9 and sulphonic acid no quantities or mixing procedures

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Guru

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#2

Re: Pine Oil + Sulfonic Acid

09/14/2010 9:31 AM

Pine oil is the fatty alcohol part having your disinfectant properties because of the presence of Terpenes. It is immersible or insoluble in water. Hence you got to go for a solubilizing group addition. The LABSA part is the having the anionic sulphonic group. By adding LABSA you are adding anionic group to pine oil. Both being organic they get mixed to gether.

Now by adding caustic you are converting this anion tail into Sodium salt by the use of caustic neutralization.

This seems to be the simple chemistry to me.

You can roughly roughly make 96 parts of pine oil, 4 parts of LABSA mix well and go for caustic neutralization. Prefer caustic flakes on a trial basis with cooling bath around the mix vessel.

The other route could be pine oil with oleic acid and anionic or non ionic emulsifier[ 1 to 2%] mixed under high speed stirrer, which can give milky emulsion on dilution with water.

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#4
In reply to #2

Re: Pine Oil + Sulfonic Acid

09/15/2010 6:10 AM

thanks alot for the info on terpene as disinfectant. For next part and for info when we mix pine oil with LABSA (before it has been neutralized) the mixure will not form gel. The main issue now is how this gel is formed? what kind of chemical or physical bonds are there? How we can make it stable?

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#5
In reply to #4

Re: Pine Oil + Sulfonic Acid

09/15/2010 8:37 AM

you can add sodium sulphate and check if viscosity is built,

The other option can be the addition of SLES gel

Turkey red oil[TRO} can also be tried as a wetting cum emulsifier to your formulation

Try the above remedies and report.

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#6
In reply to #4

Re: Pine Oil + Sulfonic Acid

09/16/2010 2:30 AM

What exactly is the LABSA? What does the "B" in LABSA stand for? Is it Basic? as in Linear Alkyl Basic Sulfonic Acid? Or is it Linear Alkyl Butyl Sulfonic Acid?

When you mix the Linear Alkyl Sulfonic Acid with the caustic soda solution, you are neutralizing the acid hydrogen of the sulfonic acid with the hydoxide ion in the aqueous (water) caustic soda solution, leaving you with a sodium linear alkyl sulfonate salt and a lot of heat. This material, having two parts attached chemically; one the sufonate, is soluble in attracts water, and the other, the linear alkyl (butyl?) group will atract the pine oil. This ability to attract both water and pine oil is what creates the gel. An important part of this process is the neutralizing step. If you add too much caustic soda solution, you will have a basic mix. If you do not add enough to completely neutralize the acid, you will have an acidic mix. You will also have different amounts of water in the mix, since from your description the only way for water to be in the mix is from the caustic soda solution. Since the gel is a mix of oil-based material and water, it cannot form from the pine oil and the alkylsulfonic acid. The change of the sulfonic acid group to the sodium sulfonate group changes the bonds from covalent to ionic in the sulfonate group.

Forming the gel properly involves thorough mixing, having the components to be mixed clean and at the correct temperature, and adding the components in the right order and at the right rate of addition, usually with constant stirring. If you have successfully made any gel, you have at least one set of conditions for proper preparation. One variable which may affect the result is the purity and composition of the pine oil, or exactly how it is made. You need to keep the purity and composition the same as it was in the successful gel preparation. If you do not have a successful preparation yet, then try small batches, keeping records of exactly how each is done, including all the details, even details that you think do not matter. (For example, how many people are watching you work- stopping to talk or answer questions can affect the mix by slowing it down, having someone help can speed it up). Once you have a working procedure, you can scale it up (make it bigger). You can keep looking for better ways to make the gel even after you are making it, but that is a separate activity.

Good luck. Keep us informed of how you are doing.

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: Pine Oil + Sulfonic Acid

09/16/2010 3:20 AM

Many thanks. This is perfect answer I will go through it. Also I will keep consideration of addition of sodium sulphate and turkey red oil for more improvement. Thank you all.

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#8
In reply to #6

Re: Pine Oil + Sulfonic Acid

09/16/2010 5:01 AM

B should be for Benzene sulphonic acid

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#9
In reply to #8

Re: Pine Oil + Sulfonic Acid

09/18/2010 3:56 AM

Yes, I agree it is benzene ring.

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#12
In reply to #6

Re: Pine Oil + Sulfonic Acid

05/30/2012 9:49 AM

Tnx so much for this insightful response. I stil have a problem, firstly my chemistry isn't good. I'll tell you how i made and eventually got a very thin pale green pine gel. In a 60Litres drums of water with the agitato going, I introduced 4% of caustic, I allowed to agitate for 20-25 mins, then I added 7.5 % of urea, allowed to agitate for another 20-25mins until completely dissolved, into that I added 15% of sulphonic acid allowed to agitate until completely dissolved then 4% MEA, and 8% pine oil very slowly I noticed it thickened but wasn't translucent. Just for colour I added 40g of green dye. End result:I noticed it turns white and then makes the mixture thin. Please, what do I do? I need a translucent, viscous pine gel. Help!

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#14
In reply to #6

Re: Pine Oil + Sulfonic Acid

08/27/2017 3:53 PM

Evening

I have recently opened my own company i specialise in bar soap making and luffa products. I get so many orders from different companies for pine gel but sadly I can't get the measurements right now I'm loosing business can you please help me?

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Anonymous Poster #2
#20
In reply to #6

Re: Pine Oil + Sulfonic Acid

05/12/2020 3:59 AM

I have been using sulphonic acid and pine oil plus cold water. One thing I have noted is that the final product is not smooth. It has oil bubbles in it. What step am I missing in making it smooth and clear with not fatty bubbles?

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Participant

Join Date: Feb 2020
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#16
In reply to #2

Re: Pine Oil + Sulfonic Acid

02/06/2020 9:53 AM

dear sir i want to know reason why oleic acid is added first in pine oil and then it mixed with nonionic and an ionic combination . please explain the chemistry. it will so greatful to you. thanking you....

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Guru

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#17
In reply to #16

Re: Pine Oil + Sulfonic Acid

02/06/2020 11:00 AM

Oleic acid is a viscous fatty acid with additional aromatic flavour and gives density / viscosity to pine oil based disinfectant. It gives dilute solutions milky depth and opaqueness. Fatty turpinoids are immiscible in water due to surface tension. Addition of emulsifies [ non ionic / an ionic] reduces surface tension and brings it to water mixable form. Many concentrates are found alkaline with caustic lye also. Now a days volatile scents are mixed to enrich fragrance of formulations.

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#10

Re: Pine Oil + Sulfonic Acid

10/23/2011 1:08 PM

CR4 Admin - Deleted Post

Spam - this type of post is not allowed outside the Commercial Space forum.

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#11
In reply to #10

Re: Pine Oil + Sulfonic Acid

10/23/2011 1:28 PM

O.M.G., an internet version of Amway.

And quit shouting (do not use all caps)! This is not the proper place to post this questionable marketing.

You need to post in the commercial space.

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#13

Re: Pine Oil + Sulfonic Acid

11/21/2016 4:00 PM

Greetings all

Please share and help, when making this mixture / gel sometimes it comes alright but of lately it has been getting a whitish color, not sure why.

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Participant

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#18

Re: Pine Oil + Sulfonic Acid

02/14/2020 4:32 AM

Dear

To make a clear Gel Form Try this formula

LABS 10%

Water 75%

Green Color

Dissolve LABS them add 10% Pine Oil

Stirr well then add about 5% sec Butanol

This will make Gel Clear

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Participant

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#19

Re: Pine Oil + Sulfonic Acid

02/19/2020 1:45 AM

I would like to add a simple formula for All Purpose Gel Cleaner

LABS 10

Water 75

Color

Mix all then add

Pine Oil 10

sec-Butanol about 5mL add the amount required until Gel become clear

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Anonymous Poster #2
#21

Re: Pine Oil + Sulfonic Acid

05/12/2020 4:00 AM

Kindly share the specific steps you use

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