2003 Cavalier Starter Sticking Horribly

Which side of the flywheel gears are the burrs on?

You have two choices. 1. they are on the side that would be caused by the starter gear when it is driving the flywheel, or on the other side when the flywheel is driving the starter gear.

Figure that out first. It should be obvious if you know which the starter turns when energized.

Burrs are on the side toward the starter. Unknown if this is the "driven or driving" side. Why (if this is the problem), would the flywheel burrs hang-up the starter gear, when the plunger of solenoid pushes sufficiently into flywheel gear, and why would it continue to hold the starter gear in place while spinning even though spring return pressure is present (yet as I stated, perhaps weak).

It seems the leading edge (toward the starter) of the flywheel is the driven side and therefore the pinion gear is wearing the starter gear... Yes? Specially as the Pinion gear is much harder than the flywheel. There really should not be any burrs on the flywheel if the alignment is correct. and as it has been said, the alignment shoud be parallel and not just contacting on one edge. The burrs (if alignment is not the issue), seems to be from engagement (plunging pinion gear) of the starter into the flywheel.

I'm going to defer to bobc who is a real mechanic with far more experience than I have.

Good luck, I know bobc won't "steer" you wrong.

Good luck, I know bobc won't "steer" you wrong

Thanks. That's no bull.

Is the starter relay integral with the starter motor? Have you replaced relay?

When you start her up, turn key back to off a few seconds after she catches. Does the starter motor still run?

Do you feel it is an electrical issue, or a mechanical fit issue.? Why?

Three times?

Test light indicates solenoid is not electrically active after key is turned to run or off activating relay also does same effect) Activating relay without ignition on does not indicate anything other than expected turning over of the motor (we removed cover from relay to press relay by hand).

Starter does not disengage (by hearing whirr after engine stops) until motor has stopped running. I did not suspect an electrical issue, yet was advised and by research, that it could be a short in the "little wire" that activates (engages) solenoid.

So, I guess I suspect the flywheel is preventing the retraction of the plunger (pinion gear?) back into restful state, creating electrical generating inside starter, or, at least, holding pinion gear onto flywheel and not retracting.?????

"... it could be a short in the "little wire"..."

I would tend to disagree. If this were the case, the starter would run as soon as you connected the battery.

I am thinking you and lynlynch are correct; a fit issue. I am afraid (ugh!) you may have deformed the gears on the starter ring so badly, that is the trouble. I think the failure sequence is designed with harder gear on the starter ring than on the starter motor. Let us hope it is a simpler 'shim to align gear axes' issue. Did you get a chance to get a good inspection on the original starter? If yes, was the starter gear badly worn/chewed up?

Again, is the starter relay integral with the starter motor? Have you replaced relay? If a seperate item, they do not always test; "Replace" is how you test them.

"...connected the battery". No, as the key is in the off position and must be at least "on" before energy is applied to the starter. EXCEPT, I did notice there was power to the "upper" connector even with key off.

Alignment... I have been considering this as a issue, yet the starter is machined (and I assume), aligned while machining with the housing flange at an exact right angle to the shaft. If this is not so, all bets are off the table, eh?

I think the flywheel is the softer of the two. I am almost certain of this. We did not examine carefully, the starter that was initially replaced. We disassembled it and two of the four brushes were completely destroyed, along with the appurtenant holders thereto. There were 4 brushes total and two were still serviceable.

Alignment... I cannot determine what kind of adjustment I should make to see if this is the problem. the burrs are on the leading edge, so that would indicate an excessive outward pressure (whether from entering or leaving the flywheel surfaces), or perhaps it is an unmatched mating of the teeth.

I am wondering if the starter NEVER Leaves the flywheel after first engagement and thus, remains "attached" to the flywheel??? Either an electrical short of some kind (doubtful) or the mechanical bond would make sense, rather than releasing after the motor stops. I wonder how I could check that?

The starters from GM are able to be aligned by use of the shims. By the book, there should 0.02-0.06 in clearance between the high point of the flywheel tooth, and the low section of the starter drive. This must be measured with a round wire feeler gauge, and the starter engaged with the flywheel, but with the starter NOT electrically energized.

If the starter is not releasing, it can be caused by a starter and crankshaft that are not parallel to each other. Hopefully the starter is the correct one for your engine. There can be some starter housings that are not correct, but can be forced in. The flywheels are hard, but should be softer than the drive. Shims can also be half installed. That is, only on the outside bolt, to tilt the starter away from the CL of the crankshaft. This can be worked out. Just ask yourself, "What has changed since the car was correct?" Good luck.

2003 Cavalier Starter Sticking Horribly

09/19/2010 12:10 PM

My understanding of automotive starters has a main point to it that the engine starting causes the starter gear which is on a spiral shaft to be slung back away from the ring gear. If the pinion gear was still engaged in the ring gear, the engine would not run even at idle. The only way for the starter to burn out is the fact of power still being applied to it. You mentioned that the upper terminal has power applied even with the key off. If you are talking about the main heavy wire from the battery, that is normal. If the terminal you are referring to is a small one, it should not have power with the key off or even in run position. That small lead only has power when the key is at the start position. You may hear a bit of tick with the engine running which would indicate the starter is still energized but the fast moving ring gear will not let the pinion gear engage. All the starters you have gone through would give enough clearance to the gears. The only way the starter will burn out is if power is still being applied as the engine is running. Disconnect the big power lead going to the starter and see if you get a big spark. A big starter current would indicate the starter solenoid is still being energized by the key switch or another fault. Remove the small wire which has power going to it and see if the starter stops rotating. You may have to remove the large wire too. But anyway the starter will not continue to burn out. Don't get too involved with shims and burrs on the gears. That starter ring gear will sling the pinion gear out of its way not matter what burrs are present.

George

"the starter solenoid is still being energized by the key switch or another fault."

I agree with this theory. I had this same problem happen to me and after I went through all the checks and throwing tools I found out it was the ignition switch. I would try checking there.

Comment #5 and #7 indicate switch has tested out, and is eliminated from the trouble pool.

I am uncertain why he comments now the switch is suspect...

There are two parts to an ignition switch 1) electrical and 2) mechanical, just because the electrical part tested ok doesn't mean the mechanical part is functioning properly. I was aware of comments #5 and #7, but neither one stated the mechanical part of the ignition was tested which is why "he comments now."

"I am uncertain why he comments now the switch is suspect..."

The mechanical part of the ignition might work sometimes and not others which would give a false test ok on the electrical part of the ignition. I wouldn't hurt to check it several times to take that variable out of the equation instead of just writing it off.

Sorry for trying to help, but that's what was wrong with mine when it was doing the same thing.

Hey! Your help IS appreciated!!! I think the comment re electrical testing and method of evaluating in this anomaly, is mainly to isolate the variables and eliminate the factors that would not be the cause of the problem. Your suggestion of intermittent failure, gives me an idea that perhaps there may be residual or lower voltage that may not be detected by the "test light" that could hold the solenoid in position, yet may not be enough amperage or voltage to acuate it in its primary function. I will check this out another time or two and hopefully check it with an ammeter to verify again. The comment is accurate insofar as I have given him the information to arrive at his conclusion. Even though I agree with him (because I usually am pretty thorough with my evaluation methods and testing), it deserves a second test for clarity and maximum assurance.

Thank you. Yamaha makes (made) a starter that uses the spiral method of moving the pinion gear toward the flywheel. The speed of the starter motor engages a mechanism inside the starter which moves the pinion gear outward by centrifugal or centripetal force. This is not the issue here, as this, and most American Automobiles do not use that method. It is a solenoid which is hinged to a sliding rod that pushes the starter pinion toward the flywheel with a separate action turning the starter motor.

We have tried the shimming to tilt the starter away from the flywheel. We tried exactly opposite the radius of the flywheel and under the lower bolt and neither works. Not only that, it is much louder and sounds more like a grinding action than the realtively smooth cranking sound, formerly. One other shim method would be to put it TOWARD the flywheel, yet this seems impractical at best.

My Son insists the connectors are exactly where they were previously on the "orignal" starter. The position of the cables do not preclude another connection, yet seem to be in a restful position, rather than the slightly askew positions the two larger cables would be in if they were changed. I am afraid to exchange the two larger ones and make the matter worse. I cannot find a schematic or better yet, a GM manual that shows the correct connections. I guess I will order a DVD Manual for his car that I saw on Ebay last night. That will be at least a week away, and willnot help at least, until then, and probably not change the electrical attachments.

There is no indication of impact in, on, or around the area of the starter-to-engine area, nor anywhere on the undercarriage to indicate a change of location or mis-alignment of the starter, nor of the internal flywheel.

The only thing that it might be, that has been on my mind since the outset, is the return spring, not being strong enough to pull the pinion gear away from the flywheel. Either because of the burrs, or the "pulling" of the starter-to-flywheel physics that was mentioned by a previous comment. I checked the strength of this return strength with a screwdriver moving the gear easily toward the engaged position, yet it was impossible to prevent the solenoid-actuated plunge toward the flywheel because of the immense force exherted by the solenoid. I know the spring cannot be equal to the solenoid-actuated strength, yet All three of these replacemement starters were weak (it seems). The starter-rebuilding-company owner, denied the weakness of the spring, stating the spring cannot be too strong or would wear out the starter prematurely or prevent it from working. I still think this may be the biggest issue, yet do not know where to get a spring and do not want to dig into the solenoid and try to replace the spring without some assurance (other than my vivid imagination), that this would help or be the solution.

I really appreciate everyone's help that you have so graciously provided, and hope I have not worn you out with such an insignificant problem (in the grand scheme of things). I thank you from the bottom of my heart.

I do not think the main heavy wire is drawing significant current in the off condition, yet we usually disconnect the battery to work with the wiring. I will check to see if this is so.

So what you are saying, is that there may be an electrical connection that is still active after engaging the pinion gear into the flywheel, (other than the solenoid wire which is NOT electrically active when in the run or off position), yes? If that is so, there is nothing I can check while at rest, rather we must check the electrical current as it is going through the components after the car is started and while it is running? I guess this will definitely need the manual to determine voltages and amps at each of the locations. I sure hope that is not the issue, as the starter we burnt out, got to such heat, it was hot almost an hour after we turned off the car (running for only about 5 minutes).

I am having trouble posting the picture of a Delco starter. I will walk you through this.

1) there are 2 larger studs on the starter solenoid. The one closest to the motor is connected to the motor. The other one, further away from centerline of starter is for the battery connection. If you want to test, attach a smaller wire to this post. Also attach a second small wire of a different color to the small post that is used to activate the starter. After the remainder of the starter is fully connected, use a test light on these newly attached wires. If those wires are only live when you have the key in the start position, your problem is not electrical. Both wires should become live at the same time, and go dead at the same time. If the large stud remains live, but the small one goes dead, it is a sticking solenoid. The problem may be intermittent, BUT, if the new wires are not live, and you believe the starter is still engaged to the flywheel, your problem is NOT electrical.

There is a return spring that attaches under the starter solenoid. It fits around the round plunger that fits inside the solenoid. Is yours still there? It can be found on all GM starters. Could yours have been left out during the first starter replacement? If it is in there, you can pull it to stretch it some to give additional return force.

OK. You are saying; Connect the wire from the battery at the starter, (the upper, further away from the centerline) as a jumper, to another wire as a jumper from the solenoid wire, and check to see if there is power. yes? It seems, if there is always power to the battery connector (as indicated by another commentator, and is true in this circumstance), that no matter what condition the key or ignition switch is in, would it not always be an indicator of electricity into the test light? (I guess, only if the other connector is ground, yes?).

Would this mean that the solenoid wire should not indicate an electrically negative connection at rest, yet would indicate electrically active when in "start" position?

I am not sure this is what you meant, yet is an interesting test. I have to wait until my son gets home to check this.

If you want the exploded picture of a Delco starter, send me a e-mail address on a PM, and I can send it to you.

Did you get the address? I sent it in a message on your page.

Brock

Yes I did, and by now you should have the exploded picture.

I have not made myself clear enough. I want you to connect 2 test leads to the starter solenoid. The first one is connected to the small post that is used to activate the starter solenoid. Usually it is a purple wire attached to it.

The second test wire should be connected to the lower solenoid connection. there is normally nothing connected to this except the copper strap that powers the motor part of the starter itself. This post is closer to the centerline of the starter.

Bring these 2 test wires away from the starter, to a location that is nearer to the battery. With a standard automotive test light,(or a volt meter if you have one) connect the negative lead of the test light to the battery negative post. Now touch the pointed end of the test light to the wire you connected to the small solenoid terminal (the one with the purple wire on it).

Now have an assistant start the car while you observe the test light. the test light should be lit ONLY when your assistant is actually holding the key in the start position. If the light remains on, the ignition switch is bad, or adjusted wrong. A remote possibility is that the key lock cylinder is not freely returning to the run position, but you should feel a noticeably sticky key action.

If the test light connected to the first wire was going off as soon as the key was allowed to return to the run position, Then it is time to do the same test to the second test wire that is connected to the large solenoid terminal closest to centerline of starter. Again, the test light should go out as soon as the key returns to the run position. If the test light does not go out, it is a sign the solenoid is mechanical staying pulled in activating the motor of the starter. this could be caused by the starter alignment, or a sticking solenoid. If so, you can check the solenoid plunger return spring, and apply a light coating of white lithium grease to the solenoid plunger. Good luck.

Here is a simple test that does not require getting dirty.

If you have an assistant with you, and think you can hear a wrong sound from the starter when the car is in the run position, listen closely and have assistant put the car in gear. (it is an automatic isn't it?). If the noise stops when in a drive position, it would be because the neutral safety switch stops the flow of electricity to the purple wire that is used to activate the starter solenoid. So if putting the trans in gear stopped the noise, it was because the solenoid was activated in the run position. This will require adjusting the ignition switch, or replacing it Good luck.

I will check (replace) the switch. Even though it does not seem to be the problem, and is a VERY big workload to replace it, there are factors to indicate there may be something about turning off the engine that might apply:

When turning off the engine, there is a whirring sound after a slight click (not always present), which indicates the starter motor is spinning in a high rpm and spinning down to rest after the engine is turned off with the key. This has happened with all of the starters (the whirring sound after the engine has stopped).

Yet, (still) it still could indicate the spring weakness not strong enough to pull the pinion gear back until the engine stops. I keep getting back to this, I know.

I wish there were honest and forthright people at GM (et al) in the repair and R&R areas that would let us know what problems there are, so this trial and error process would not be so necessary.

If you two don't stop arguing, I am going to send both of you to the Renault Fuego forum.

"send both of you to the Renault Fuego forum."

I apologize, just don't send me there.

My Son has been under the weather and working and we haven't worked on the car since you sent the last suggestions. I have gone to the library to get the schematics for electrical at starter, yet the book was a reference and all I could copy was in the binding area, and not clear at the binding area, so I ordered a DVD off Ebay of the GM Manual (I hope). Your suggestion of testing the wire closest to the centerline has me curious, so I wanted to know where the wires are REALLY suppposed to go and if, by some chance, he may have switched the wires upon initial assembly. I do not think it would be possible, because the starter would probably always be running if the starter core wire were attached to the battery wire. I thunk.

Anyway, Thank you for getting back with me. I Will keep you posted as to the results of the testing and the final result even if we ultimately have to take it to the dealer.

Brock

OK. Here goes. There must be one #4 wire or larger (5/16" or larger outside) with a 3/8" hole in the terminal. This must be attached to the solenoid stud furthest from C/L. There also must be a thinner 14-12 gage purple wire attached to the small stud on solenoid.

Now for the "might be" there wires.

Current from the alternator must get back to the battery. It can be attached to the starter at the same location as the battery feed, or it can be attached to the battery itself.

All of the electrical systems except the starter motor also must receive power from the battery. That power can come from a wire attached to the battery, or from the battery post on the starter.

SOOO. There MAY be 1,2, or even 3 extra wires attached to your starter, depending on options, and how GM decided to wire that series of car. But the good news is that all of these "might be" wires are always attached to the large battery stud on solenoid. Also, all of these wires should be red in color, although there may be a section of fusible link attached to the very end of the wire that may not be in the red color. These sections are only 2-4" long, and the wire covering is of a softer feel than the remainder of the wires used on the car.

Now you draw out the wires you have and I will try to get Lynlynch to color it for you.

PS. If the feed from the alternator was connected to the same stud as the purple wire, it could give the same results you have.

You can say that again. I've grown lazy in my old age. Don't even change my own oil any more.