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Anonymous Poster

Petition to Protect the Title "Engineer" in the UK

03/10/2007 6:26 AM
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#1

Re: Petition to protect the title 'Engineer' in UK !

03/10/2007 1:09 PM

What do think American Engineers about this petition and of the legal protection

of the title ( word ) ' Engineer ' ?

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: Petition to protect the title 'Engineer' in UK !

03/10/2007 5:25 PM

We have a thing called Professional Engineer, it is only needed if you work for the city or civil engineering where you have to certify designs. Most engineers just go by their ability and the fact that they have a degree. It seems to work OK.

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#15
In reply to #2

Re: Petition to protect the title 'Engineer' in UK !

03/12/2007 9:19 AM

" . . . Professional Engineer, it is only needed if you work for the city or civil engineering where you have to certify designs."

Well, this just ain't so! Almost all construction designs are required to be stamped by a professional engineer before the building inspection authorities (state, county, or municipal) will approve them. Problem is that some PE's don't actually design OR supervise the designs of systems but stamp them anyway, jeopardizing their license.

The word "Engineer" is (and should be) protected in this state.

Bill, P. E.

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Anonymous Poster
#22
In reply to #2

Re: Petition to protect the title 'Engineer' in UK !

03/12/2007 3:02 PM

Actually licensed professional mechanical and electrical engineers are required also. In some states Chemical engineers are licensed. It is needed for consulting. Many engineering disciplines have title protection, ag eng, chem eng, ind eng, in California. Only electrical, Mechanical and civil are protected in Practice. The word "Engineer" is not protected, just specific protected terms like professional engineer, registered engineer, civil engineer, mechanical engineer, etc.. And then, there is no enforcement. Many non-registered engineers use the title of civil engineer, e.g. staff civil engineer. Protection of the title just makes the work more expensive,as many of the older licensed engineers retaining licensure, do not have the faculties after many years of managing and not practicing (no longer current and grandfathered a ton of authority), they retain staff personeel to accomplish the tasks and they sign and stamp under their own authority. These older serial managers cost 4 or 5 times as much to have involved in a project and frequently do not have adequate understanding of the technical issues (I know a large uinternational design firm that functions this way); it is cheaper to use young educated unlicensed staff, and the older guys stamp.

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#23
In reply to #22

Re: Petition to protect the title 'Engineer' in UK !

03/12/2007 4:26 PM

Actually, the state of SC does not allow the word "Engineer" or "Engineering" to be a part of a business name unless the proprietor or a corporate officer is a licensed professional engineer. So, in that sense, the word engineer is legally protected.

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#3
In reply to #1

Re: Petition to protect the title 'Engineer' in UK !

03/10/2007 11:44 PM

The first engineers watched steam engines, and later steam boilers to run engines, and later heating and this came in due to the large number of boiler explosions and 1000's of deaths. Mainly driven by insurance companies who insisted that only people trained on the boilers and engines were deemed good enough to run them and get insuirance. A whole thicket of qualifying exams and certificates and boiler test methods arose.

Then we had the parallel concept of engineering = solving a manufacturing problem/process come along. As we got more complex in our engineering we divided up into specialties, like chemical, civil, electrical and barely civil(rude and rowdy) engineers, and so on. These ran into the former group and their trade union based certifications. So they came up with the the term professional engineer, a P.Eng in Canada/USA and this was granted only to those with enough experience or a degree and some less experience in their field.

IN Canada/USA you do not need to be a professional engineer unless you are involved in hiring yourself out in a professional manner or if you were the final design authority on an items the public had to trust to be safe (bridge etc).

Most engineers do not bother unless they need the stamp, as their are dues and insurance needs that can be costly.

The most benefical effect is that no-one can call himself a P.Eng unless he us approved and a dues paying member of the union, or association they like to say.

That would keep a lot of the badly educated and trained, so called, engineers, as well as the frauds out of many positions.

Shyam said that fake schools and fake engineers are a growth industry in India.

It has been like that for 50 years.

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#25
In reply to #3

Re: Petition to protect the title 'Engineer' in UK !

03/13/2007 9:43 PM

The first enginners are carpenters and help personnel that carry, maintain and assemble the wars artefacts that was used in the ancient wars, how the greeks and late the roman did made wide use of this artefacts (arts facts) and in latin the word genie is for a wize creature, they put the name genies to people with wize mind for design and make wars artefacts (remember Arquimedes of Siracusa) he was a genie and when you group wizard people they are "in genies". In the XVI century the military powers have something how ingenies corps or enginners corps how we know today, The beginnings of civil engineering as a separate discipline from the military may be seen in the foundation in France in 1716 with the Bridge and Highway Corps, out of which in 1747 grew the Ecole Nationale des Ponts et Chausses (National School of Bridges and Highways). Who was the first educational institutions who give to the society civil engineering technics.

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#26
In reply to #25

Re: Petition to protect the title 'Engineer' in UK !

03/13/2007 10:46 PM

Yes, Ingenious = engineer :)

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#4
In reply to #1

Re: Petition to protect the title 'Engineer' in UK !

03/11/2007 3:49 AM

As a UK Chartered Engineer, I endorse the view that the British Engineer receives little prestige in his own land. I too know of engineers who have moved abroad for a better level of respect at work.

However, much of the problem is caused by us engineers. How often have you written to you local or national papers, or phoned your radio stations, or been on television to defend or comment on an engineering issue.

If we all hide in the shadows, unlike the doctors and lawyers, we can only expect to be ignored.

Hugh Mattos

Chartered Engineer

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Anonymous Poster
#5
In reply to #1

Re: Petition to protect the title 'Engineer' in UK !

03/11/2007 12:42 PM

Think you mean United Statesian, not American engineers.

You see, there is no such a thing as 'American' nationality, America is not a nation America is a continent with many nations in it. The US never named itself the name of the United States is a designation it comes from the end of the Declaration of Independence, "WE, therefore, the Representatives of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, in GENERAL CONGRESS, Assembled...". The preamble to the U.S. Constitution reiterated the phrase: "We the People of the United States..." (The authors of these two documents probably used the phrase "united states" in place of a list of colonies/states because they remained uncertain at the time of drafting which colonies/states would sign off on the sentiments therein.) The geographic term "America" specifies the states' home on the American continent.

It is therefor incorrect to refer to US citizens as Americans with the intent of denoting citizenship, or the United States as America with the intent of denoting a nation. Americans have a term for US citizens, we are called United Statesians by the rest of Americans, to say American with the intent of denoting citizenship or America when we mean the United States reflects poorly on our attitude towards the 70% of Americans that are not United Statesians.

Also, although some people would like to believe that America is not one but two continents, North America and South America. If you think about it though, the term U.S. of A. is a glaring example that this line of thought is incorrect, if America was two continents instead of one, shouldn't it be U.S. of N.A. (North America)? We say Columbus discovered..... ? AMERICA, not South America or North America.

Lastly, while everybody in America from Nome to Patagonia, from Easter Island to Greenland is an American, not every United Statesian is an American. For instance, Hawaiians are as United Statesians as they come, but they ARE NOT Americans, they are Pacific Islanders.

Hope that helps.

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#6
In reply to #5

Re: Petition to protect the title 'Engineer' in UK !

03/11/2007 1:23 PM

The problem stated by the gentleman in the UK is not unique. We, too, here in the US are having the same problems. Those who have attended accredited colleges and universities, have the mandatory years of demonstrated experience and have passed gruelling examinations and obtained professional licenses are grouped with those who have done little or none of the above. We have obtained the same status as doctors, lawyers and dentists and should be granted the same respect. The individual who stated that we are our own worse enemies is right on the mark....engineers tend to be timid and not prone to writing to the media or our representatives and stating our objections. And don't be fooled, we ARE suffering because of that. I am confounded by that lack of self-protective enthusiasm.

The individual who, by the way, ranted about the "Unites Statesian" is either saying this tongue-in-cheek or is inhaling too much fairy dust. Everyone in this country who is a citizen is an AMERICAN........

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: Petition to protect the title 'Engineer' in UK !

03/11/2007 2:02 PM

The root of the problem is that dentists, doctors, lawyers are allowed to practice only if they are members in good standing in their unions (or professional associations as they want to call them).

Enginers can do what they like when they like as employed people with no need for a membership in any association. Only if the public is involved, bridge, building, road, FCC approval, etc is a profe3ssional engineers stamp mandated.

So the majority stop paying their dues after a while as it seems they get nothing from it

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#9
In reply to #6

Re: Petition to protect the title 'Engineer' in UK !

03/11/2007 5:02 PM

So, what about the rest of us who share the continents of North and South America? Are we not worthy of being counted as 'American' simply because we are not citizens of the USA? It seems to be quite chauvinistic to call citizens of the USA 'Americans' to the exclusion of all other nations on the continents.

When we say someone is European, we do not assume that they are from France. An Asian is not assumed to be from China and an African isn't necessarily from Ethiopia. So why are 'Americans' only from the USA?

Just for fun, whenever someone from the USA tells me they are American I like to ask them which country they are from - Brazil? Mexico? Canada?

Maybe this is a little tongue-in-cheek, but it underscores a small peeve that many non-United Statesian Americans share.

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#16
In reply to #6

Re: Petition to protect the title 'Engineer' in UK !

03/12/2007 11:05 AM

"We have obtained the same status as doctors, lawyers and dentists and should be granted the same respect."

Engineers, unlike the professions in your list, are the only ones who can "practice" with a 4-year degree. Earning a PE license, as far as I know, doesn't require any additional, formal education (although an exam must be passed, much like the Bar exam). Those engineers who go one to receive advanced degrees are more in line with your list. I just wish we had a definable jacket to wear too! Although, I'm not sure how good I'd look in white.

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Anonymous Poster
#8
In reply to #5

Re: Petition to protect the title 'Engineer' in UK !

03/11/2007 4:20 PM

Tell me, just exactly what does this rambling comment have to do with the subject at hand???????

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Anonymous Poster
#17
In reply to #5

Re: Petition to protect the title 'Engineer' in UK !

03/12/2007 11:17 AM

While I agree wholeheartedly (when overseas, I always say "I'm from the 'states" rather than "I'm an american"), I will play devils' advocate on the issue of "USNA" - the US is the only nation of united states on either continent (north or south america) therefore, specifing north america is unecessary.

as for the original issue, perhaps some protection of the term would make some sense (I've heard janitors refered to as "maintenence" or "cleanliness" engineers). However, Engineering does garner respect as a profession here (ah, we're all accurately assumed geeks, but aside from that :p) so I don't see it as being a significant problem.

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#19
In reply to #5

Re: Petition to protect the title 'Engineer' in UK !

03/12/2007 12:55 PM

United Statesian???

Never heard of it... I've always called myself an American, always will. (I'm not Mexican, and I'm not Canadian.)

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#28
In reply to #5

Re: Petition to protect the title 'Engineer' in UK !

06/06/2007 3:17 PM

I'm an American. Although I admire our United Statesian promoter's zeal in his grassroots movement to get that term as the standard in the English vernacular ... (wait a minute! Why do the English assume it's THEIR language? ... I mean the American vernacular ... wait a minute! .. I mean the United Statesian vernacular) ... while I appreciate the reasoning .... it just AIN'T gonna happen. And the attempt to preach it sounds rather silly. No offense meant.

The fact is, this is a common and natural occurrence. Another example is all tissues being referred to as "Kleenex" (in the U.S.) Despite the inaccuracy of a given label to something, if a term catches on, it's evidently the term that is most comfortable to the majority of english-language-based speakers. Majority rules in this type of thing. It happened on it's own. There was no United States conspiracy that arrogantly made this happen. So, to say that there is any arrogance of any U.S. citizen assuming a monopoly on the word American ... it's just not so. We don't think anything at all about it. It is the term the world uses. Period.

And also a term can have multiple meanings:

A·mer·i·can

–adjective 1. of or pertaining to the United States of America or its inhabitants: an American citizen. 2. of or pertaining to North or South America; of the Western Hemisphere: the American continents. 3. of or pertaining to the aboriginal Indians of North and South America, usually excluding the Eskimos, regarded as being of Asian ancestry and marked generally by reddish to brownish skin, black hair, dark eyes, and prominent cheekbones.

Just like Kleenex can mean any tissue, or it can mean specifically Kleenex brand. Both are considered accurate because that is what has been accepted. American means several things. All are proper and accurate.

I've seen this United Statesian rant in these engineering pages before. How odd an obsession this is. To what end?

As far as the original question ... during my years of employment in England, I came across some individuals who were calling themselves "Engineers", whose educational qualifications didn't even come close to what it takes in the U.S. of (North) America to be called an engineer. I don't know all the ins and outs of British Engineering training. And I'm not saying there is a difference in quality between engineers in the States and in the U.K., but I did meet a few who were called Engineers before we in the U.S. could have taken on the same title.

So the original question is not as cut and dry as one would think. My opinion regarding that question would be something along the line of "Yes, but ..."

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#10

Re: Petition to Protect the Title "Engineer" in the UK

03/11/2007 5:13 PM

I respectfully disagree with my engineering associate. The "organization" that we licensed engineers belong to is "Licensed Professional ENGINEER." The majority of the professional societies do an outstanding job of providing technical assistance yet none when it comes to supporting the licensed professionals in a "business" sense.

And to my compadre in Saskatchewan.............Aren't you a Canadian?????? Would you rather be referred to as a North American???????? Where is your national Pride???

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#11
In reply to #10

Re: Petition to Protect the Title "Engineer" in the UK

03/11/2007 5:53 PM

well, the doctor's, lawyers and dentists unions engage in access restriction and monopolistic practices.

If the engineers union insisted on set wages for assorted tasks, and anyone who did not conform risked being struck offn then wages would go up, and emplyment would go down and a horde of engineering assistants would appear that would perform fragments of engineers tasks. This has happened to lawyers with paralegals to the point where lawyers have a hard time making a fat income these days. Same with assorted para medicals.

In short, unless you get a structure that mimics that of the doctors, give up. Now if you had this system and helf the engineers were out of work....who would be happy?

A lot of these associations of assorted peoples are really in restraint of trade and do not help the people much as economics rules. We would have all our engineering done in China>\??

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#13
In reply to #11

Re: Petition to Protect the Title "Engineer" in the UK

03/11/2007 6:27 PM

I would encourage you all to look at the situation of "professional unions or associations" eg. medical/dental/lawyers/etc. over history. I believe if you check back you will find that, for example in the early 20th century, physicians were not very highly thought of until after they unionized and forced out the riff raff (we call them quacks). Once they became selective about those deemed capable of practising medicine they obtained and still do control their own destiny.


As a member of a family that has 4 physicians and several PhDs, I can attest to the rigorous training physicians must endure; but, I also believe the engineering community as a whole would probably unionize overnight if they had the chance (and the right leaders). Unfortunately, someone once told me and I believe it: "Engineers are too noble". Just think if being noble were the important thing when it comes to salaries and working conditions, where would our teachers be in the US?

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#14
In reply to #10

Re: Petition to Protect the Title "Engineer" in the UK

03/12/2007 12:36 AM

Of course I am Proudly Canadian! Indeed I prefer to be called a Canadian, but Canada is part of North America and therefore I am 'American' (yes OK, North American). It is out of national pride that many non-United Statesians feel insulted when someone uses the term American to refer only to citizens of the USA.

How would it feel if whenever someone said Earthling, they are referring only to Canadians. Wouldn't it be just a little insulting to the rest of the inhabitants of Earth, as if they don't matter?

I point this out in good fun and I enjoy giving my cousins who are citizens of the USA a hard time about it. I know it won't change anything (any other phrase for citizens of the USA is awkward or too long).

Anyway, I hate to take up space in a discussion about the title "Engineer" with an unrelated discussion of semantics.

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Anonymous Poster
#20
In reply to #14

Re: Petition to Protect the Title "Engineer" in the UK

03/12/2007 1:50 PM

As a citizen of the USA, I concur with your analysis of the word 'American', SkFarmer., and it's interesting to me that *most* Canadians I know disagree when I tell them they are as 'American' as I am.

I suppose what this confusion arises from, and points to the need for, is a 'nice term' for 'citizens or residents of the USA'.. surely this learned group could come up with a good name!... unfortunately, 'United Statesian' just doesn't do it for most of us. *G*

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#21
In reply to #20

Re: Petition to Protect the Title "Engineer" in the UK

03/12/2007 2:10 PM

What has all this discussion of Americanism got to do with the status of engineers?

Hugh Mattos

Chartered Engineer M.I.Mech.E.

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#12

Re: Petition to Protect the Title "Engineer" in the UK

03/11/2007 6:06 PM

The trend has already begun, unfortuately, as engineering work is now being "out sourced" to foreigners. Good for the foreigners...bad for the Americans.

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#18

Re: Petition to Protect the Title "Engineer" in the UK

03/12/2007 12:02 PM

An engineer is someone who completes an accredited four year college study program in engineering, for the most part. However, there should be exceptions like Thomas Edison.

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Anonymous Poster
#24

Re: Petition to Protect the Title "Engineer" in the UK

03/12/2007 4:59 PM

You want to be wary of exclusivity. Often, it is just about power. I have a degree in Mfg Eng Tech, and have worked as a mfg and ind engineer for years. Some would put their noses in the air and not let me into the "Engineer's Club". Usually it is after I explain why their drafting is unfit for the floor, or why something cannot be machined or welded how they want w/o excessive cost, or why tabs and slots are better than tooing inventories and faith in tape measire reading.

Be afraid!

PS Canadians need to get over it. Be happy being Canadian, and you will spend less time being upset that people just think of you as the almost-Americans.

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#27

Re: Petition to Protect the Title "Engineer" in the UK

03/29/2007 11:11 AM

What really bugs me is the fact that binmen are now refered to as refuse disposal engineers! It took me many years to accuire my qualifications, worked in design, worked in toolmaking, and also worked and programmed cnc lathes, 5axis milling m/cs, multi spindle tools, grinding, etc, etc, ! although I am now a qualified electrician, my heart lies in solving problems by getting inside the problem! All engineers are like this I think, whatever you specialist subject! I left engineering as a job because of the low wage, and the out sourcing of work to other contries meant that in the south of england nearly all the firms closed down!

Be proud of your status.

PS. I don´t have anything against binmen, only their use of the word engineer!

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