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AM Radio Signal Creates Noise on Medical Devices

09/21/2010 4:15 AM

We have an issue in an hospital with an AM transmitter 300 m away from it. The devices in hospital are kind of jammed with the transmitters signal even if they are to an extent shielded.

What would be the best solution to isolate the AM signal from sensitive measurement and visualization devices. I thought of ferrite beads for the mains power filtering but probably the wires inside the walls, and other metal parts also resonate to an extent as secondary antennas...

Any proposals, any suggestions or any corrections on my estimations...

Regards,NKU

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#1

Re: AM radio signal creates noise on medical devices

09/21/2010 4:30 AM

Close down the transmitter.
Either the transmitter or the equiment in question doesn't meed the relevant EMI directive.
Del

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#2

Re: AM radio signal creates noise on medical devices

09/21/2010 6:28 AM

Del the Cat is probably on the right track. What country are you in?

USA has the FCC. Other countrries may have similar regulatory bodies.

If no fruit from this pursuit, perhaps a Faraday Shield?

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#3

Re: AM Radio Signal Creates Noise on Medical Devices

09/21/2010 7:41 AM

Try to lift the transmitter above 5 to 6 feet than the height of that hospital or from the present height(i.e from its actual position) Well this will be suitable if the concerned antenna produces waves that are less distorted in that particular direction..... this is just a suggestion but might work if planned over......

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#4

Re: AM Radio Signal Creates Noise on Medical Devices

09/21/2010 8:30 AM

Make sure that the wire shields are earthed at one point only, grounding system resistance is normal and equipment frames are connected to ground bus with short path to ground.

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#5

Re: AM Radio Signal Creates Noise on Medical Devices

09/21/2010 8:41 AM

It would be helpful to inform us what country you are from or where the transmitter is located.

From what I can infer, the RFI problem is in more than one piece of equipment. That would either indicate the source of the problem is the transmitter or it could be a common line such as the AC power line or a network cable.

Is the transmitter commercial or just some individual?

A commercial outfit should be willing (if not eager) to wok with you to resolve the problem. Their license is on the line, so they should get a technician on the job immediately.

A private transmitter may be another story. In this case, if thE ownEr is not willing to help, you need to work with the local authorities to resolve any legal issues. This can be slow, but a hospital may have some weight to throw around in the eyes of the law.

A private company that specializes in radio station installs or antenna installation may be another source of help. You can hire a firm to chase down the problem. If they can't help, they should be able to tell you an outfit that can. Basically, they send out a technician with some equipment to track down the problem and recommend corrective action.

The cheap way out is to inquire within your hospital if anyone on the staff is an Amateur Radio Operator. HAMs, as they are often called, have a lot of knowledge on the subject of RFI and/or you may have a local club that would be willing to volunteer their help in tracking down the problem and resolving it for you for free. HAMs tend to be very community service minded and love to contribute to a worthy cause.

Best of luck!

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#6

Re: AM Radio Signal Creates Noise on Medical Devices

09/21/2010 9:58 AM

The country is Turkey and when the stations was built there was no hospital. Then they built the hospital. The station works within legal power limits but not the devices in the hospital. So there is no solution such as shutting down the station or moving the hospital.

Making the Faraday cage to every device holding room with conventional copper is crazily costly while my idea was to use the conductive EM paintings together with ferrite beads to cut the high frequency components from mains together with reliable groundings. If necessary local isolation of devices could be another solution with silver fabrics is the last solution.

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: AM Radio Signal Creates Noise on Medical Devices

09/21/2010 11:26 AM

There are a number of things you must check to find the root cause:

1. Determine if the transmitter is operating correctly. There should national guidelines for the amount of spurious emissions either side of the carrier frequency and the dBm level of each spur. The radio station should be able to help you establish that. Chances are they have the calibrated equipment to check that and do that periodically as a matter of course. They can confirm that they are operating within spec and you can go merrily onto the next step.

2. Determine the entry point for the RFI. This is a trial and error process that a HAM can help you with.

Your idea may be a good starting point. Try it with one room and see what solves the problem. The paint would be my last choice because it is hard to take off. Remember, you are trying to find the solution that works best and a methodical step-by-step approach is the better way to determine the fix that works most effectively.

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#8
In reply to #7

Re: AM Radio Signal Creates Noise on Medical Devices

09/21/2010 12:00 PM

Once again you've hit the nail on the head AH. I've given both of your replies here a GA.

The difficulty here will be identifying the interference entry mode. Getting the assistance of a Ham operator is an exquisite suggestion. The one thing a Ham operator may notice at the AM station transmitter is that the broadcasting antenna may have a reflecting element missing, thus making the pattern of the energy distribution (EIRP) [Effective Isotropic Radiated Power] too high at the local ground level in the direction of the hospital.

It is also not unheard of that the RF sensitive diagnostic equipment of a hospital must be placed inside a Faraday cage to be useful.

For the hospital's sake I hope that the path is coming from the coupling into the power grid wires. Some strategically placed power line filters for the diagnostic equipment should block that path.

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#25
In reply to #7

Re: AM Radio Signal Creates Noise on Medical Devices

09/22/2010 12:45 PM

A good reply.

I like to draw your attention towards some more points:

1. All the power entree points must have In-Line Filters with earth as short as possible.

2. In one of hospitals [Children Hospital donated by Japan] in Islamabad the same roblem was seen & they installed all the sensitive Diagonostic appliances in Faraday Cages to rsolve the problem

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#26
In reply to #6

Re: AM Radio Signal Creates Noise on Medical Devices

09/22/2010 12:49 PM

what frequency does the station transmit on ??

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#9

Re: AM Radio Signal Creates Noise on Medical Devices

09/21/2010 5:21 PM

as all AH has said you need to establish how am interference is entering system

if it were me i would fit suppresion to the mains supply coming into the building and tehn at all the fuse boards thus eliminating mains borne interference.

then filters on the mains outlet to the equipment.

it may even be possible to place a chicken wire type of mesh to the out side of the hosptial on the wall facing the transmitter then earth the mesh

by the way could you tell us what the AM transmitters frequency is this may help

if it has a set frequency it will be possible to build a filter that will stop selective frequencies

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#10
In reply to #9

Re: AM Radio Signal Creates Noise on Medical Devices

09/21/2010 5:50 PM

My point of it being an advantage if the path is the power main is that the power entering the instrument can be filtered. This will be the most cost effective since the instrument filter will not require anywhere near the power handling capability of a hospital filter.

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#12
In reply to #10

Re: AM Radio Signal Creates Noise on Medical Devices

09/21/2010 6:56 PM

the type of filter i have in mind does not have to handle the power, it just shorts out the radio content

and by providing a short to earth for radio then all systems connected to the mains will also short out radio energy

by the way has any one ever mentioned that the way you compose sentences makes it difficult to understand ?

also as i understand the problem perhaps better the reason being the wiring in the hospital is acting like an Ariel. so the best approach would be as i suggested ie to create as many radio short circuits in the wiring as possible thus terminating the spurious signals being induced in the wiring

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=mains+filter+design&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGLT_en&redir_esc=&ei=bTeZTMWmC8yNjAfj-tTlDw

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=mains+filter+circuit&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGLT_en&redir_esc=&ei=mTeZTLavEJGUjAfLvIXyDw

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=mains+filter+suppressor&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGLT_en&redir_esc=&ei=sjeZTOiCHc2TjAeo1_kt

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#13
In reply to #12

Re: AM Radio Signal Creates Noise on Medical Devices

09/21/2010 10:03 PM

Yes, my first draft sentence structure does get confusing. I have a bad tendency to make too many conditionals in one sentence. I also have a tendency to pick up the fractured language of the multi-cultural people I work with at times. One scientist I work with is a stutter from Taiwan. For years I thought he was just fumbling for the English words.

But I write my replies always as a first draft. My "formal" writing always takes me at least three days to get the syntax right. I ultimately end up including all the nuances I need to make my point while simultaneously making my point clear.

Oh, next time you criticize someone's writing style, use some punctuation.

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#17
In reply to #13

Re: AM Radio Signal Creates Noise on Medical Devices

09/22/2010 4:17 AM

why do i need to use punctuation to point out i cant understand your writings ?

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#22
In reply to #17

Re: AM Radio Signal Creates Noise on Medical Devices

09/22/2010 11:01 AM

So you're a man who believes the phrase "Do as I say, not as I do." Well you know what they say about people who live in glass houses.

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#27
In reply to #22

Re: AM Radio Signal Creates Noise on Medical Devices

09/22/2010 2:25 PM

They have the best ocean view.

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#29
In reply to #22

Re: AM Radio Signal Creates Noise on Medical Devices

09/22/2010 3:33 PM

they get hot in the summer ?

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#30
In reply to #22

Re: AM Radio Signal Creates Noise on Medical Devices

09/22/2010 3:34 PM

its costs a lot to have them cleaned ?

They getcold in the winter

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#31
In reply to #30

Re: AM Radio Signal Creates Noise on Medical Devices

09/22/2010 3:54 PM

Yeah, yeah and there's also all of those other silly sayings an Englishman once wrote: like "Ignorance is strength," or what about "Freedom is slavery," also a favorite "Sanity is not statistical."

Lastly my favorite full quote:

"Parsons was Winston's fellow employee at the Ministry of Truth. He was a fattish but active man of paralyzing stupidity, a mass of imbecile enthusiasms—one of those completely unquestioning, devoted drudges on whom, more even than on the thought police, the stability of the Party depended."

Now tell me, who here hasn't had to work with somebody like Parsons. Likely a few have felt that same way about me.

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#32
In reply to #22

Re: AM Radio Signal Creates Noise on Medical Devices

09/22/2010 3:58 PM

"... people who live in glass houses."

If the person living in the glass house is Yvette Mimieux (substitute your favorite here), the prices of the surrounding homes increase by an exponent?

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#14

Re: AM Radio Signal Creates Noise on Medical Devices

09/21/2010 10:47 PM

This is called RFI, (Radio Frequency Interference) There are two methods you can use. One is called RF bypass, and each wire that enters the piece of equipment would have a small high voltage capacitor to ground. This would be .001 Uf, 1000 volts (or higher if the circuits carries a higher voltage).

The other is called RF blocking. This uses what are called ferrite beads and they are placed so the signal wire passes through the opening in the bead.

You can use both, a bead and a capacitor.

These links will help

http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&safe=off&q=%22bypass+capacitor%22+%2BRFI&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=%22bypass+capacitor%22+%2BRFI&gs_rfai=&fp=923260c4f0af2f7a

http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&source=hp&q=%22ferrite+bead%22+%2BRFI&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=%22ferrite+bead%22+%2BRFI&gs_rfai=&fp=5d1036a107ea2675

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#15

Re: AM Radio Signal Creates Noise on Medical Devices

09/21/2010 10:57 PM

I'm reaching here, but it's worth a reach. All medical equipment here in the US, must meet SADMERC qualifications for use, but they all come with a caveat re; RFI. I work with this equipment, notably, power wheelchairs and scooters, as well as the equipment you are probably using in your surroundings. The equipment is supposed to be shielded to meet standards, but of late, I have clients that call in from Walmart, and other stores that use tracking systems in-store to follow products and report back to their home base for inventory control and theft control. The signals they use are probably on an AM frequency as it caused havoc with some of the equipment in the stores. They won't divulge this info. My very simple "repair" was to wrap aluminum foil around the control modules and other sensitive electronic devices and it cleared it up. It worked, and it ain't too hi-tech to warrant a raise, unless you can come up with a better description of what you did to mitigate the problem so it looks good to your super.

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#23
In reply to #15

Re: AM Radio Signal Creates Noise on Medical Devices

09/22/2010 11:15 AM

I like your approach: "My very simple "repair" was to wrap aluminum foil around the control modules and other sensitive electronic devices and it cleared it up.". I solved a similar problem at a semiconductor facility a few years ago using a similar approach. I used copper foil tape, and wrapped it around the leads to the sensors that were feeding data to the instrument exhibiting the interference (these leads are feeding the most sensitive circuits in the system). I grounded only one end of the tape. This reduced the interference by 20 dB V.

Of course, this would be awkward for something like an EKG, because 14 leads have to be connected, and more weight would make it harder to keep them in place. However, if an experiemnt proves that this will solve the problem, maybe the EKG manufacturer could propose a solution.

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#16

Re: AM Radio Signal Creates Noise on Medical Devices

09/22/2010 12:16 AM

copper foil wallpaper on the outside of the walls.

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#18

Re: AM Radio Signal Creates Noise on Medical Devices

09/22/2010 5:42 AM

The hospital building may be resonant (as a quarter wave vertical), a seven story building of about 3000 sq ft/300sqm per floor resonated at ca 950 kHz with much the highest field strength in the lowest floor. Only when the building was extended by doubling the plan area was that problem cured!

The transmitter was 10 kW and about 3km away, so I don't envy your location.

Probably the first step is a survey, about 20 turns of wire on a 75mm former to an oscilloscope (to monitor that what you see is the transmitter) and an RF milivoltmeter to measure the signal. The loop should be turned for maximum signal and the field vector recorded to, say, 1 dB and 30 degrees azimuth and elevation.

The measurements will best be taken on an interest basis, rather than an equispaced matrix. Rapid vector shift with distance will indicate pipes, conduits and metal structure with transmitter induced current.

To allow all instruments to be used in any part of the hospital might well need filters on sensor and data leads, needing a balance of medical convenience, cost and legal approvals on certified equipment to be achived.

Screened rooms might be a solution, but on a cost/ benifit basis a change to FM on the transmitter might be best. Poltics?

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#19
In reply to #18

Re: AM Radio Signal Creates Noise on Medical Devices

09/22/2010 5:46 AM

The measurements will best be taken on an interest basis, rather than an equispaced matrix. Rapid vector shift with distance will indicate pipes, conduits and metal structure with transmitter induced current

WHAT DOES THIS MEAN IN SMPLE TERMS ??

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#21
In reply to #19

Re: AM Radio Signal Creates Noise on Medical Devices

09/22/2010 10:19 AM

Instead of making measurements at equally spaced locations, like a phased array analysis problem, the person doing the RF sniffing should observe the changes in vector magnitude and direction while moving about the critical spaces. This is because one should remember that the strongest RF energy could be either directly from the transmitting antenna of from a reflection off of the covered metal parts located in the walls.

At least that is how I translate the sentence into simpler but more verbose terms.

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#20

Re: AM Radio Signal Creates Noise on Medical Devices

09/22/2010 5:54 AM

If you do end up going the Faraday cage route it's worth pointing out that you can get RF shielding for windows too.

This is just one example selected for no particular reason:- http://www.lessemf.com/plastic.html

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#24

Re: AM Radio Signal Creates Noise on Medical Devices

09/22/2010 12:43 PM
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#28

Re: AM Radio Signal Creates Noise on Medical Devices

09/22/2010 3:32 PM

if you can get access to the steel work in the building bonding or linking them together a nd earthing them will help to stop the structure radiating the signal

But AM is very difficult to suppress

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=suppresion+of+unwanted+am+signals&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGLT_en&redir_esc=&ei=nVmaTIj8IoW6jAfc-qn4Dw

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