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4W+G Generator and Utility with Multiple 3p transfer switches

10/14/2010 6:52 PM

My electrical system at my plant consists of 3 generators and 2 utility service entrances. I have a transfer switch for each of the utilities and they connect to the Gen's for emergency power.

Pretty straight forward except now we are removing all neutral conductors and installing a new 3p transfer switch underneath the existing utility switches. The generators and utilty will still by wye connected but no L-N loads are served.

I know if you have switches underneath switches when L-N loads are served you may split the path on the neutral and get circulating currents.

Since I have no L-N loads am I ok?

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#1

Re: 4W+G Generator and Utility with Multiple 3p transfer switches

10/14/2010 11:51 PM

So long as the generator and utility neutral arrangements stay "as is" there should be no problem.

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#2

Re: 4W+G Generator and Utility with Multiple 3p transfer switches

10/15/2010 9:32 AM

Not so fast!

You intend to remove the neutrals back to there sources? How do you intend to ground these systems?

If you drop the neutrals back to the source so that nothing is connected to the star point of the wye sources, to ground these systems you will have to corner ground one of the phases. If you intend to not ground this system, which is now to be basically a delta service (though still connected wye), you will have to install ground indicating equipment.

What I would do is... tie all of the neutrals together and go to one grounding electrode that meets your local code requirements. I would also bring all down stream separately derived system neutrals back to the main ground as well. This way... your bonding systems (that gets created at each source by way of a bonding jumper from the neutral to case ground) across the whole plant are ensured of being at the same potential, one to the other, during a fault condition.

Doing this incorrectly can introduce a potential difference in the various bonding systems due to the differences in impedance back to ground of those systems during a fault. Caution is called for.

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#4
In reply to #2

Re: 4W+G Generator and Utility with Multiple 3p transfer switches

10/15/2010 10:01 PM

"The generators and utilty will still by wye connected but no L-N loads are served". I read that to mean Y's will still be connected.

It seems a crazy idea to me to do away with neutral. I've still bad memories of 550V systems, transformers everywhere.

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#5
In reply to #4

Re: 4W+G Generator and Utility with Multiple 3p transfer switches

10/15/2010 10:09 PM

He can safely do away with the neutral to the downstream distribution equipment if no phase to neutral loads are present as long as he keeps the star points tied into the main grounding system, and to each other.

I read it that he was "removing" the neutrals back to the source. Which IMHO, is a dangerous thing to do if the grounding arrangements for these separately derived systems are not taken care of properly.

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#6
In reply to #5

Re: 4W+G Generator and Utility with Multiple 3p transfer switches

10/16/2010 4:41 AM

That is why I said in my first answer, "generator and utility neutral arrangements stay "as is"".

I'm now agreeing with mountk2 this is a crazy work of fiction.

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#3

Re: 4W+G Generator and Utility with Multiple 3p transfer switches

10/15/2010 2:29 PM

I have my doubts if single phase indications lights are not there on the main switch boards.

I have my doubts if voltmeters and range selector switches (with connection to neutral) are not there on the switch board.

I have my doubts if single phase lights for illumination are not there in the plant and all staff uses portable torch lights.

I have my doubts if single phase control circuits such as star delta starters, FA etc. are not there in your plant.

I have my doubts if single phase drill machines, portable tools are not there in your plant.

I have my doubts if you can predict if no single phase equipment will be there in the next 20 years.

But I have no doubt what so ever that; battery charger of your Boss's mobile phone and laptop connection as well is on single phase, hence no funding and no manpower resourcing to you.

Conclusion: Neutral to stay.

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#7

Re: 4W+G Generator and Utility with Multiple 3p transfer switches

10/16/2010 9:04 PM

I am inclined to agree with answer three and parts of two especially concerning residual current.

This is rather unusual especially your proposed single switch installed below two incoming supply change over switches, and are these correctly interlocked.

There is much info required firstly why would you strip out every neutral conductor, related to harmonics etc?

Dub

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