I am by no means an expert in this area, but as I understand it you would want a RAID drive. You'll need a RAID card (sold at your favorite electronic stores), a hard drive, and much patience (as I understand that it can be frustrating to set up).

Experts chime in...

And best of luck.

RAID is Redundant Array of Independent Drives. You'll also need at least two more hard drives. I could be wrong about this, but I think they should be identical, or at least the same size and configuration.

RAID drives don't need to be identical or the same size. In the mirror type configuration, if they are different capacities, it will simply be limited to the smallest capacity drive. (note the same thing goes for speed and data transfer, the slowest one sets the speed)

That's why I said they should be the same, not they must be the same. Why spend extra money on a large, fast drive when a smaller, slower determines operation?

The question has nothing to do with the hardware and RAID is hardware.

Its a question about software only.

From a hardware point of view for a moment, I personally would NOT use a RAID to make such a backup as there is a slightly enhanced possibility when using striped or similar of data loss, only if Mirror is the safety enhanced......though RAID5 or higher is good if you have at least 4 (or possibly 5, I have forgotten!) drives or more in the RAID......I actually worked for the first company that produced RAID 5 systems many years ago......

Of all the various softwares for a drive "clone", I personally like Norton Ghost from Symantec as its reasonable in price and makes a backup on many different media types, including Tape, DVD, CD, any HDD to name but a few.

Look here:-

http://www.symantec.com/themes/theme.jsp?themeid=ghost

Its also a DOS level program, so it makes a full "COLD" backup of any system/OS, WHEN THE OS IS NOT ACTIVE, which is vitally important for backing up of Windows as when running, it is constantly "altering" itself!!!! This can cause serious problems when trying to put the image back on a disk.

It can read from any FAT or NTFS Disk partition....or complete disks with several partions on them.....

Ghost can compress, but only on the fly and the gains are often not large (sometimes no gains at all!), but the time taken can increase dramatically......

I would recommend NOT to use compression as any pictures, videos and MP3s are not only already compressed, but actually INCREASE IN SIZE DRAMATICALLY if compression is used again on such data!!!

MANY PEOPLE DO NOT UNDERSTAND THIS!!!

The only good point is that some TOP professional tape drives, when compression is used on un-compressible data, switch compression off for any block that gets bigger (or is the same size) after compression. But these are drives at over $30,000+, cheaper ones are just stupid on this point!!! As are all CDs, DVDs and HDDs......

If compression is not used, you actually can make a clone disk that can be installed and boot normally, which is what you really want......

Ghost can also be used to go from a small disk to a larger one. (it can go the other way provided that the "contents" are not larger than the disk it is to be placed on!)

Its also very easy to use and most of the important functions are already set up, but are also easy to understand . self explanatory......

It can be run from a Floppy, CD/DVD or today even a bootable USB stick I believe.......

Its a good reason to put a floppy (USB) on a PC......and get a few floppies.....but a CD will also work:-

PROVIDED YOUR BIOS IS NEW ENOUGH TO BE ABLE TO BOOT FROM THESE TYPES OF UNITS....if it can't, buy the floppy......

I'm afraid your assertion "The question has nothing to do with the hardware and RAID is hardware." is misleading. There is no point in cloning a disc if the clone proves to be unreliable, as you yourself point out later on. If, on the other hand, the disc image is made on a RAID system with mirroring, the backup is bullet-proof, and you can restore the backup to as many fresh discs as you like without worrying about the integrity of your clone.

I actually wrote (please check that carefully yourself!), maybe you weren't reading each line fully? many "speed" readers do this. I manage to speed read and get every line personally:-

From a hardware point of view for a moment, I personally would NOT use a RAID to make such a backup as there is a slightly enhanced possibility when using striped or similar of data loss, only if Mirror is the safety enhanced"

Does that fit the bill?

I was correcting my post when the time ran out. Here it is in its complete form:-

I actually wrote (please check that carefully yourself!), maybe you weren't reading each line fully? many "speed" readers do this. To quote correctly from my original post:-

From a hardware point of view for a moment, I personally would NOT use a RAID to make such a backup as there is a slightly enhanced possibility when using striped or similar of data loss, only if Mirror is the safety enhanced"

Does that fit the bill?

Furthermore, you appear to misunderstand Mirroring slightly. In a 2 drive RAID, Mirroring means that each drive is basically a Clone. eg. you end up with two copies, one on each disk.

In a 4 drive RAID system that data is spread over two disks!!, most unlikely to be bootable as I have recently found out!!

The reason being that the MBR and its position is not stored for example by most backup softwares.......and without the MBR (in the exact correct position!) you cannot boot!!!

So my Mirror comment (and yours too) are mostly/often incorrect in the case of cloning disks for booting......but of course work great for data.

Mirroring can be used to store "images" of hard drive if you have software that makes an exact image, including all MBR data, but of course the image must be extracted and placed on a fresh drive before it can be used for booting........

Working Clone drives will have to be usually single drive copies in probably 99% of all cases/software.

Apologies to anyone that was mislead.....

Andy,
I suggest you learn to speed read more carefully. For your benefit, I extract the following from the discussion:

Netmaker (the original question)
I need a solid, reliable and easy to use exterior type backup system that will virtually copy my ENTIRE C: DRIVE.

phph (#12)
There are two parts to this, the hardware and the software. The hardware, ideally, is totally independent of the PC, and has its own power supply. My preferred solution is a RAID box accessed over a network. My first attempt was a 2 hard drive box from the Far East in which 1 drive mirrored the other for security (RAID 1). It was great until the fan stopped working, everything got hot, and both drives failed. I managed to rescue most data from 1 drive and my other backups, and then went for a 4 drive box solution from a reputable manufacturer (Netgear). The drives are now in a RAID 5 configuration, which means that I still can access all the data even if 1 drive fails;

Andy Germany (#13)
The question has nothing to do with the hardware and RAID is hardware.

Its a question about software only.

From a hardware point of view for a moment, I personally would NOT use a RAID to make such a backup as there is a slightly enhanced possibility when using striped or similar of data loss, only if Mirror is the safety enhanced......though RAID5 or higher is good if you have at least 4 (or possibly 5, I have forgotten!) drives or more in the RAID.

[My new comment at this point - it most certainly is a question of the hardware as well. You have to backup up to something, and my point of view is that it is safer to back up to a RAID system designed for security. Furthermore you appear not to have noticed that both the RAID 1 and RAID 5 systems I specified involve mirroring, and it does even less for your credibility if you cannot remember how many drives you need]

Andy Germany (#22)
I actually wrote (please check that carefully yourself!), maybe you weren't reading each line fully? many "speed" readers do this. I manage to speed read and get every line personally:-

From a hardware point of view for a moment, I personally would NOT use a RAID to make such a backup as there is a slightly enhanced possibility when using striped or similar of data loss, only if Mirror is the safety enhanced"

Does that fit the bill?

[my new comment at this point. This is, frankly, insulting. Your own speed reading is called into question if you have not grasped that both my RAID proposals explicitly involved mirroring]

Andy Germany (#23)
Furthermore, you appear to misunderstand Mirroring slightly. In a 2 drive RAID, Mirroring means that each drive is basically a Clone. eg. you end up with two copies, one on each disk.

In a 4 drive RAID system that data is spread over two disks!!, most unlikely to be bootable as I have recently found out!!

The reason being that the MBR and its position is not stored for example by most backup softwares.......and without the MBR (in the exact correct position!) you cannot boot!!!

[My new comment - the insult continues, plus a lack of understanding as to what a 4 drive RAID system does. I never suggested that 1 of the 4 drives could be pulled out to make a clone. What I suggested is that a disc image is saved to a RAID system, from which it can be used to restore any number of hard drives without the image itself being compromised.
Yes, a network RAID box is more expensive than a single exterior drive. You pay your money and you take your choice. My choice is that this form of security is well within my budget. You may choose otherwise.]

You show your own lack of understanding of RAID by not defining the RAID type that you are talking about each time.......that is a requirement to show a) that you understand fully and b) to make your comments correct hardware wise......

Which means that (sadly) you will not then understand my comments fully, which is why you are continuing to misunderstand them. Simple.

So how can I help you further to become "au fait" with RAID systems.......?

A reasonable place to start is if you study this link fully:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAID

It will help you (or anyone) to understand far better what RAID is all about......sadly it does not fully cover Boot disk cloning on mirror systems well.....it does cover a software version that explicitly cannot clone disks fully, but it still serves as a sort of "RAID 101" for helping people to better understand the basic principles correctly.

If I can be of any further help, please just ask as I have a reasonable amount of other online RAID information if required and I would be most happy to post it for you (or anyone interested) here if need be.....

I trust that I have fully answered you questions/problems with posting this link.....

Great input! Seems much easier than a raid setup. Is the clone a continual process or just a snapshot? (do you need to sync it or create a new image periodically?)

Once you have the initial "full" backup, you can do incremental backups as often as you care to. The latest version (which I don't have) does have more options available as far as that goes. I'm considering upgrading my older version, they keep sending me "upgrade" offer pricing, so I'll probably take them up on it.

Tom D.

GA for stevem!

Same software that my computer geek friends have installed on my machine....works great and well worth it!

Mark down another vote for Acronis True Image. I purchased the full version of this software a while back, and I've been very pleased with it. I use it with both internal and external drives.

Tom D.

http://www.dropbox.com/features

Dropbox is an easy and possibly FREE (up to 2GB) option for off site backup or file sharing and retrieval.

Sync

Dropbox allows you to sync your files online and across your computers automatically.

• 2GB of online storage for free, with up to 100GB available to paying customers.
• Sync files of any size or type.
• Sync Windows, Mac, and Linux computers.
• Automatically syncs when new files or
  changes are detected.

File Sharing

Sharing files is simple. It takes only a few clicks.

• Shared folders allow several people to collaborate on the same files.
• See other people's changes instantly.
• Use your "Public" folder to link directly to files.
• Control who has access to your shared folders. Kick people out and remove the shared files from their computers in the process.
• Automatically create shareable online photo galleries out of regular folders.

I purchased duplicate drives, and a cloning program and connections. I periodically just clone the entire drive. Then if I have a crash i just pop the backup drive in and I'm good to go.

There are two parts to this, the hardware and the software. The hardware, ideally, is totally independent of the PC, and has its own power supply. My preferred solution is a RAID box accessed over a network. My first attempt was a 2 hard drive box from the Far East in which 1 drive mirrored the other for security (RAID 1). It was great until the fan stopped working, everything got hot, and both drives failed. I managed to rescue most data from 1 drive and my other backups, and then went for a 4 drive box solution from a reputable manufacturer (Netgear).
The drives are now in a RAID 5 configuration, which means that I still can access all the data even if 1 drive fails; the box is set up to send me an email if there is a failure. As a bonus there is a USB socket which turns a USB printer into a network-accessible printer.
As for software, there are various drive clone programs, and the Acronis one is as good as any. The important part is to make regular incremental backups on a timed basis, not randomly.
For those that wonder about switching to a Mac, the combination of the inbuilt Time Machine software with Time Capsule hardware is something beyond amazement. I have hourly incremental backups of the full drive for the last 24 hours, daily backups for the past month, and weekly backups till the backup drive is full. I will never lose more than 1 hour's work.
My Netgear box is accessible over the network to both Mac and Windows environments.

I wonder just how many of the people using and recommending backup software have actually used it to make a clone system disk and then used the clone disk to work from?

None would be my guess looking at the standard of posts.....

We must make a distinction between the backing up of pure data only and the backing up of installed programs (and data as well if needed = clone of a disk), they require two different processes.

Many find this out only when a problem happens with the main hard disk.....sadly!

Andy,

Steve mentioned that he has used Acronis for years, and restored systems using it, and although I didn't indicate it in my most, I too have used Acronis in the same way. It has many of the same features you mention are part of Symantec Ghost, including bootable media, so you can do a full image of the OS without it running. I use this option routinely, and I have also used it when upgrading drives.

The OP asked for suggestions for backup software that would image the drive, several of us have given that. It's up to him to look in detail at what has been suggested, and make his own decision as to which software best meets his needs. I don't think you need to "dis" those of us who offer a short suggestion based on the original posts' request.

Tom D.

Agreed.

My experiences with backup software under WinDoze for cloning have always proved to be problematic.......I was simply trying to draw attention to this aspect......I have seen grown men cry (literally) when the clone did not work!!!

To have the best chances of working, it must be a "cold" image......

It also must be tested "live" at least occasionally to a) find out if it works as a clone b) to check that all data was really backed up c) to gain knowledge of the method/practice......

Thanks for your comments as well......

I've used my cloned disks several times. I make clones when I have installed new SW and have it completely debugged and know the entire system is in good shape and free of any virus etc. If someone does load a virus or some other "bad" sw on the system, I go back to the last know good clone and continue.

What software do you (have you previously) use/recommend?

What I do for a cold boot back up of my home XP system that is always getting trashed.

With maxtor hard drives & maxblast software.

Make sure the source drive has the operating system installed the way you want it with all of the needed device drivers.

Shutdown the computer & install the drive you want to image.

Cold boot the maxblasts software.

Clean the drive you want to image & then copy the source image to the new drive.

Shutdown the computer, remove the source drive & replace it with the new imaged drive & cold boot.

You should be running fine on the copy check the operation of some of your programs & data files.

If everything is ok then run on your new disk & put the old disk in a safe place as your master.

For normal backups of datafiles I backup my work directory to a external hard drive after major work sessions.

Doug

It appears that a consensus for cloning a drive means only "cold" imaging......I add my vote for that method too......

Get and use Acronis True Image.

It does complete drive mirroring.

I do my dual boot XP and Linux drive from within windows - copies all the partitions, files, boot sector/s(?), - everything.

Drive A dies... slip in drive B.

Simple.

Oh yeah - I have an external SATA or ESATA drive case and a SATA or ESATA port to the motherboard on the computer...

I think using a USB connection to clone a drive could and probably would cause problems.

RAID works great but can be expensive and complex to to initially setup. Not really the best option for general home backup but it is ideal for mission critical operation and data. Only my network server (Ubuntu site mirror and file archive) runs SCSI RAID. Everything else gets cloned.

I've used Apricorn EZ Gig for WinXP laptops (with external USB backup drives) and have swapped internal for external drives after crashes. It is quite nice to be up and running in under 10 minutes like nothing bad had happened. Since all my current activity is now in a Linux OS, I simply use the built-in (dd) commands to make clone backups. While I haven't had any crashes on a Linux machine, I have swapped out many drives (rotating backups and drive size upgrades) with no problems.

ALL of these cloning activities can/will fail if the drives are "hot" while the copy is made. Booting from a floppy disk or live CD to make a "cold" copy of the main hard drive is the safest and most reliable way to use this method. Any internal or external drive connection will work. PATA, SATA, SCSI, USB, Firewire, and ESATA drives should all work fine, although speed may be a concern for larger drives.

GA for the Acronis link as it looks like one of the best options for home Windows machines.

This isn't new but if you've ever suffered a major data loss you know how catastrophic it can be. This may fit you well... http://download.cnet.com/BeInSync/3000-7240_4-10311348.html