Polymer Fabrication Help

How did you wind up taking on a job about which you know nothing?

You are building a contraption to do "something"? I assume you "want to make the world better" for a reason. You don't state what specifically you want to accomplish, and how much you are earning for your efforts. My uneducated guess is that you want to make fibers for some reason. What might the end product be?

I'd start with a call to whomever is supplying you with the raw materials.

Or, maybe come back here with a valid reason that we should devote our time to helping you succeed with your noble effort.

Good luck.

The CR4 forum was designed to help others where and as needed, not to criticize. I'm retired and have made major breakthroughs in my lifetime both before and after retirement. (FYI, I was a contributor to the space shuttle program.) However, the end product that I'm working toward is not the point of topic. It's the help I need in an area that's foreign to me. I've already proven the concept is feasible and now need to get it to production stage.

As a researcher most of my life, give me a little credit for checking with online sources that supply PEG and PEO. I went there first, as I believe most of us do before going to CR4. FYI, those that supply the polymers were of no help, since the concept is relatively new. Not as a last resort, but the chances of my getting help through CR4 forum is a "shot in the dark" for me. I'm hoping that there is someone out there who can help or provide a lead.

If you can offer good information on what I'm asking, I'd like to see it. If not, that's ok, too. By the way, if the need is ever there, the end product I'm developing may even help to save your life.

I appreciate you contribution to the space program. I worked on the packaging of electronics for the Shuttle program myself.

I still maintain that your material supplier is a valid source of process information. If you are successful, they stand to make money.

Secondly, I'd contact some universities specializing in polymer chemistry.

Lowell, Massachusetts (MA) Technical Schools and Colleges

Good luck with your project.

Just refer to Polymer chemistry, if condensation polymerisation can be fostered by PEG and Poly ethylene oxide. Normally an aromatic/ aliphatic acid part is involved in condensation polymerisation. Confirm the basic polymerisation reaction before proceeding.

Thanks for that. I'll try to understand and follow through with your advice. By the way, you may want to see my response to LynLynch

For fibers, you want the highest molecular weight you can get.I would guess you would want a hot, concentrated solution of polymer in water, and have a way for the water to flash off (and be recycled?) as the solution comes from the orifice. The amount you can dissolve in water may depend of the molecular weight of the PEG and temperature of the water.You want the fiber to form in a region below its melting point. Check the melting point of the PEG and try to stay 10-20'C below it. BTW- as far as I know, PEG and PEO and pretty much synonyms. Both are made from ethylene oxide.

Thanks for that. Sounds like I'm getting closer. What percentage of water to PEG/PEO do you recommend? Less the better, I assume. My apparatus can be made to go to extreme high pressures (1000 psi+) and the polymer may not need to be deluded or as deluded.

Therefore, another issue arises: any idea what the 'throw' distance would have for the polymer to solidify, if at all. I can, however, heat the chamber. if need be. By doing this it would certainly eliminate removing the need for flashing off water. What do you think?

Post #2 suggested acid condensations with polyols to increase mw. Is that viable in your application, using di-acids to tie polymer end groups together? Often with high mw polymers, the end groups are so dilute they are difficult to find and react. If the mw gets too high, the undiluted polymer will start climbing the agitator shaft (Tyndal Effect?) Some of these parameters you'll have to work out for yourself. You'll find many ways NOT to do it before you find a good way to do it. If your PEG/water solution is hot and under pressure, it will cool and evaporate water as it is sprayed into a lower pressure zone. This process is so unique, it may be a "figure it out as you go" situation.

Your question is worded so as to avoid giving significant details away to others while asking for very specific recommendations. Something caused you to choose the 0.008" size for the holes, but no other information like the taper, if any, to the holes, the spacing of the holes from each other, the nature of the gas, if any, that the PEG solution is being injected or thrown into, and a ream of other "details". If you have a published reference to the Harvard work, citing that would help others (us) to "guess" some answers. Contacting the Harvard workers is an obvious route to seek suggestions unless you see yourself in competition with them. The concentration of the PEG and/or its dilution, as well as what solvent or mixture of solvents you select is dependent on a host of factors, such as, is this fiber product intended for the US market, or the third world? Medical, food, construction, clothing, etc? The quality of the starting material -PEG- is highly variable and can be obtained or made in a range of conditions: chain length (MW) and variability, added copolymer units to provide branching or active sites, etc. All these things are considerations. I am going into these issues so that when someone seems frustrated in your lack of detail about the machine you are currently building, you are probably hearing from from someone who knows enough to help and would help if they could, as in the earlier thread replies.

It is hard to ask a good question, but it is worth it. If this is considered "off topic" then that is sad for the quality of your results.

Why do you want to do fibers with PEO? Surely not for its mechanical properties.

Be sure to remove efficiently the water from the PEO, because even slightly wet PEO will give you a blob, not fibers. You could maybe take advantage of the PEO/water solution cloud point.

Correct, it's not for mechanical strength, but to make fibers.

What is cloud point? - What is a good ratio of water to PEO to avoid a blob? - How does it get mixed? - Can I use a PEO without having to mix with distilled water? Can you suggest a supplier and grade of PEO to meet this requirement? - Would having a long 'throw' length make a difference? - If so, how long should this be? - Would hot air help to attack the stream to quickly solidify the PEO before hitting the target wall? -

As you can see, this is all new to me. and thank you very much for your interest and especially to my needs.

Actually, unless youre composition is weight speration or you really do wish to end up with a usless ball of fairy floss you are going about it the wrong way. the centrifuge is simply an experimental unit to prove a property for this type of effect, the molton/sticky thread will still bind on exit unless there is a cooling chamber upon leaving the spinner, additionally you will end up with thousands of short threads.

If there is no fabric application then keep going, if there is, simply use a heated pressure sprayer that has an agitator if required, if mix and temps are absolutes, then thread is achieved by any pressure nozzle, if fact you can. You are making it too complicated, polymers are plastics and weather in granules form in an injection molding machine or in chemical form in jet to cool format, the concept and practice is the same, if you can make the blob with the mix then theoretically you can make the thread from any polymer. Harvard has made no great discovery, they are simply making the polymer and extruding at the same time, rather than make/cool/granulate/melt/extrude.

Regards

Archie

Enerventure