Previous in Forum: 240v / 110v converter for 90-110v bodine motors   Next in Forum: Why impedance of Transformer is given in %age?
Close
Close
Close
6 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Participant

Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 3

Operation of Transformer Other Than Designed Frequency?

12/06/2010 1:34 PM

Dear Friends, Recently I attended an Interview for a MNC Transformer Manufacturing Company, They asked me many questions, one of them is this... Can a 50 Hz designed transformer run on 60 Hz, and if it run what are the effect on %impedance and regulation.? I answered that I know very well that a 50 Hz transformer can run on 60 Hz but a 60 Hz transformer can not be run on 50 Hz. They said it is right but explain why? I explained that when frequency is shifted 50 to 60 then Flux density of transformer is decreased by a factor of 0.8325, so transformer can easily run but required much more excitation voltage from primary side to keep volt/turn same. But similarly when we ran a 60 Hz designed trafo on 50 Hz the flux density may increased by same factor and core may saturate which will cause increased heating of core and increased in its gradient. I don;t know whether it is wrong or right please clarify it and also its effect on %Z and regulation.

__________________
Design Engineer (Power Transformer)
Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".
2
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1686
Good Answers: 116
#1

Re: Operation of Transformer Other Than Designed Frequency?

12/06/2010 5:37 PM

You were correct in most things. Shifting 50 to 60 gives 50/60 = 0.8333 on my calculator though! My textbook gives two components of the magnetising loss. Hysteresis loss is proportional to f x B x B^x (f= frequency, B = maximum flux density). The first f x B cancel each out because B falls in the same proportion as f increases. The B to power x has an x value between 0.5 and 1 for usual flux densities, hence B^x lies between 0.912 and 0.833. Clearly, hysteresis loss is reduced if a 50 Hz transfo is operated at its "50 Hz RATED VOLTAGE" at 60 Hz. The second component Eddy-current loss is proportional to B squared x f squared - here the fall in B exactly cancels the rise in f and the loss is unchanged between 50 and 60 Hz. In summary, magnetisation losses are less at the same primary voltage when a 50 Hz transfo is operated at 60 Hz. You may not be correct about volts per turn, you have not mentioned any change of primary voltage - so [since the transfo has a predetermined number of turns] the volts per turn will not change if the voltage stays the same. Regarding %Z, the thing to remember is that the leakage inductance is the same at both 50 and 60 Hz so its reactance will be 20% higher at 60 Hz. So roughly %Z will be 20% higher at 60 Hz. More exactly, remembering that the impedance Z is the long side of a vector triangle of which the other sides [at right angles] are reactance and resistance, the reactance has increased 20% but the resistance won't have increased as much as 20% so reactance will not have increased as much as 20%. The resistance will increase slightly at the higher frequency due to "skin effect" but this is probably negligible. The regulation might increase by 20%, but remember 20% occurs at a low lagging power factor while on resistive loads the voltage drop from no-load to rated load is small anyhow - so the effect for the load depends greatly on the load power factor. The only other factor is short circuit current - it will be 20% lower for 50 Hz transfo at rated voltage but 60Hz at 50 Hz will see 1.2 x 1.2 = 1.44 times design bursting forces in windings which is dangerous. Practically, whether the "fresh" transfo has the same rating as the original and whether the voltage ratio is the same will be just as important as frequency change. If the question was jacking an 11 kV 50 Hz transfo up to 13.8 kV, this would be "overcooking" since both flux density and frequency would be higher and no-load losses would increase a lot. Finally, one CAN run a 60Hz transfo on 50 Hz if you can drop the primary voltage 20%. For example, a 13.8 kV transfo could operate at 11 kV 50 Hz, but observing its CURRENT rating limit would drop kVA rating about 20%.

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Anonymous Poster
#4
In reply to #1

Re: Operation of Transformer Other Than Designed Frequency?

12/07/2010 11:31 AM

Is there a link available to see the international standard IEC 76 ?

Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#2

Re: Operation of Transformer Other Than Designed Frequency?

12/06/2010 10:14 PM

Normally Transformer's manufacturers hide the manufacturing information from the employees and consider it company's secrets.

If in the interview they find you have a lot of information about transformer they will not accept you,they want employees with only very basic poor knowledge to keep their secrets safe and not to be known by others.

That is my experience with transformer's manufacturers.

Register to Reply
Active Contributor

Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 16
#3
In reply to #2

Re: Operation of Transformer Other Than Designed Frequency?

12/07/2010 11:15 AM

That is exactly what those guys doing,they want their workers to work as a machine with no brain and no thinking ,and if one day you ask a technical question they don't give answer , and next week will be out of the company-terrible.

Register to Reply
Active Contributor

Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 11
#5

Re: Operation of Transformer Other Than Designed Frequency?

12/08/2010 2:13 AM

check the below thread for a very good explanation on the above query. http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/50946/Installing-50-Hz-200-KVA-3-KV-transformer-in-60-Hz-system

Register to Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: India
Posts: 98
Good Answers: 2
#6

Re: Operation of Transformer Other Than Designed Frequency?

01/10/2011 5:32 AM

the point what u told is correct. If the transformer runs in low frequency other than for which it is designed, over fluxing will happen in the transformer and can cause more heating in the core. Some process inductries usually have over flux protection for their X'mer where under frequecny problem is usual.

In protection relays for overflux, V/f=1.0 will be maintained. if either voltage shoots up or freq. goes down, the value changes from 1.0 and relay trips after some time delay

-Vijay

__________________
You don't understand anything until you learn it more than one way.
Register to Reply
Register to Reply 6 comments

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

67model (1); Anonymous Poster (2); Energy Conservation (1); vijaymail_electrical (1); Zeko (1)

Previous in Forum: 240v / 110v converter for 90-110v bodine motors   Next in Forum: Why impedance of Transformer is given in %age?

Advertisement