Plumbing Issues

I hate to say it, but I would call in an expert. You are dealing with huge liability if you break it. There is no cheap way to repair the main from the city without shutting off the section of city main you are on. It could only mean your street, or at worst your whole neighborhood.

If you call in an expert and they break it, they have liability insurance to pay for the inconvenience to the city. Just make sure they assume the responsibility if it breaks.

Drew

I agree with Drew K, but I have a few additional comments / questions (more questions than answers):

• I'm not sure what I see in the pictures, but in our area, the shutoff valve is usually 2 to 3' below the top of the large pipe the photo shows--down low enough so that the line and valve are below the frost line--and, there is usually a cap on that (protection pipe)--to do things like keep dirt out and presumably minimize cold air infiltration, even though it is typically not an air-tight cap.
• Did the city (or their road contractor) really fill the pipe up with dirt and bury it under the street (asphalt)?
• Again, in our area, such shutoff valves are not located under the street but typically somewhere on the property where it is accessible without digging up asphalt--if the valve ended up under the street due to a road widening project, I would have expected the city to provide a new valve--I hope that's what they do in our area...
• Is there any chance they have provided a 2nd shutoff valve on your property, not under asphalt?

You do have an emergency: sooner or later the water leaking into the ground will likely cause some problems for you. In that case, I'd expect the city to have some liability, especially if they were called out and failed to stop the water flow.

Finally, I'm curious about your homeowner's insurance with respect to something like this. Would an insurance company try to claim that any damage resulting from this was due to a flood, and not cover you unless you had flood insurance? (That wouldn't seem right, but maybe the first claim has to be against the city?)

Thanks guys,

There may be an alternative shut-off closer to the house but when I asked the water dept. guy to wave his wand over the area it got no reading. I am going to dig it up today to find out. Gotta go meet the pro...thanks again.

jj

Could you explain a little better what "burst just underground below my shut off" means.

1) Since you are asking I'm assuming that it broke on the city's side of your shutoff and on your side of the city's shutoff. Is that correct?

2) Is the break on your side or the city's side of your meter?

3) Is the break preventing your house from getting water for normal household use?

4) Is the break causing damage to your yard, driveway, street, etc.?

5) Is the break causing a dangerous condition?

if your water usage is metered for billing purposes, there is normally a plug cock adjacent to the meter so that the meter can be removed from the line to disable service.

If you know what your lateral is( type and size) get a pair of compression couplings made specifically for that pipe material and size, open the faucets in your house you can't compress water) and splice in the new piece. I've done it hundreds of times. Once you have the splice in place, cover it to prevent refreezing and then get warm and dry. Close the faucets in the house.

Are you asking how to fix the broken water serivce. First off if the break is in the road it is the responcibility of the municipality to repair, you only own the part that is on your property.

There are two shutoffs for you service one at the curn stop (what you uncovered) and one at the main (3/4" X 1" corporation cock). If your house and water service is 80y/o the material is most likely wrought iron, you can pull a 3/4 inch type-k copper tube through the wrought iron easy enough.

Dig in front/arround the curbstop and expose the corp in the street you can close the corp with some plyers. Remove the fittings upstream (male adapter) then you can install a 1X3/4 adapter with a compression coupling. dig a hole past were the service is broken and slide the copper through the wrought iron on the side nearest the house you will need another coupling set up like you used just past the curbstop corp. Once you get eveything tight you can slowly oper the curbstop again with plyers and test for leaks. then bleed the air out at the meter if you can, if not you will have to use the fitting in your house but go slow so you don't create a hammer effect and blow out your fittings.

If you call a plumber and the prices are simmilar the the NE then you should expect to spend about 2K to fix it propperly.

Hello.Could you please give information of where i might find these laws relating to "a number of crimes the most recent addition being terrorism for touching public water mains" Thank you.

Yes sir Mr. Bin Ladder. I will just post anything that you might want to know. Would you like anything else?

You must have really thought a lot about this didn't you?

In 2002 Public Health, Security, and Bioterrorism Preparedness and Response Act ("Bioterrorism Act") PL 107-188 was passed by Congress. Title IV of the act pertains to drinking water security and safety. The act required community water systems serving more than 3,300 people to assess their vulnerability to terrorist attack. In addition, community water systems were to prepare or revise emergency response plans that incorporate the results of the vulnerability assessment. Water systems had to certify to the Administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) within six months of the completion of the vulnerability assessment that they have completed an emergency response plan.

After 9/11 everything changed. I have seen farmers and contractors end up at the police station explaining why they were hooking hoses to fire hydrants without permits - fine of $2,500. I have also seen plumbers lose their licenses for opening or closing valves on public water lines. This is not the only legislation concerning these issues. Try googling it. Not just the federal but state laws also. Most public water utilities have passed their own rules and regulations concerning these issues. If not, they are behind in the times.

This is extremely important. Make sure you call for a utility mark out. It is the law prior to digging.I have never seen anyone able to slide the new service inside the old service,it usually work on a gas services. the 80 year old service is more than half clogged with build up. even if you were able to do this it would knock so much crap loose that it would take out your water meter and you would be replacing every faucet valve in the house.

Ok, catastrophe averted.

I am getting a little frustrated with this site. I know I was a little vague with my inquiry and I do appreciate most of the comments but all I needed was info on what I was looking at based on the picture provided.

Example: "your looking at the top of a guide pipe filled with dirt, the shut off key is usually 3-4 feet down that tube"

A plumber came and cleared out the guide pipe, but had no luck finding it with his shut off tool. After trying for an hour or so they said we can get a back ho-ho here or you can do it...I grabbed a shovel. I uncovered the key and tried to shut it off but with moderate pressure it didn't budge so I called them back to shut it off...if they break it they fix it etc etc. The plumber did have to exert a significant amount of pressure to shut it off, and once it was shut of *water started coming out of a weep hole just below the shut-off valve, this is a pressure relief and the water stopped after a bit.*

I'm glad he was there if I had shut it off myself and saw the water coming out of the relief I would have probably hit the panic button.

I hope this thread someday helps a new home owner like myself, below are some more pics of what I was dealing with.

Guide Pipe

Guide pipe, notched end is supposed to straddle the pipe directly over the shut off valve.

Shut-off valve. Turn it 1/4 turn clockwise to shut off. Guide pipe was not able to sit on there properly because just above and off to the back side is the sewer line, thats why I had to dig it up.

Being a pack rat I had a piece of plastic tubing (plotter paper spool) that fit nicely over the valve and in the guide pipe. this way its protected from dirt and we should be able to get on it with the key tool from the surface next time.

Thanks again.

jj

Glad you got the problem solved, and thanks very much for the feedback / pictures.

Yes, the site can be frustrating at times--feel fortunate, most of the comments on this thread were pretty much on topic.

good and bad news

Me myself I have worked with city crews in Vancouver Edmonton and Saskatoon as well as some smaller munies. the rule I have found is from the main water line to the valve including the valve is the property of the city,town,muni.etc...you are in. Being there property you cannot touch it without a permit and usually they do it themselves anyway in short it is there job to turn it off and if it is broken it is there bill due to lack of maint. on the system but the repairs to your side are your bill.this will probably change from place to place it's worth looking into. A word of caution if you choose to do it yourself you typically assume all cost and repairs should anything go wrong. Me I would push them to do there job. Best of luck to you the powers that be like to pad there backsides with people like us to keep the cost down