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Is Recharge Required for Inverter Module?

01/13/2011 2:45 AM

Dear Gens,

We are using ABB ACS800 inverters for the motor speed control.

My doubt is the supplier telling that before closing the feeder must be precharge the inverter circuit otherwise it will damage the components.

I am not satisfied the answer, I am expecting exact reason and more information.

Thanks

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#1

Re: Is it recharge required for inverter module

01/13/2011 3:19 AM

If it's still under warranty, just go for it. If components get damaged then the equipment is not fit for purpose; send it back and don't pay the invoice.

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#4
In reply to #1

Re: Is it recharge required for inverter module

01/13/2011 2:51 PM

If all else fails, read the instructions.

In likely response from the Manufacturer:.......If the drive fails under warranty and you didn't follow the instructions then you have voided the warranty, but we will gladly sell you a replacement.

Fortunately we didn't have to use this line on any customers as the failures directly due to capacitor inrush current occurred outside the warranty period.

Jack - Former Variable speed drive service agent.

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#2

Re: Is Recharge Required for Inverter Module?

01/13/2011 1:11 PM

ABB is really vague on this and I've never been able to find the actual manual they list: Capacitor Reforming Guide (code: 64059629). They refer to this guide in the hardware/install manual but good luck finding it.

What they are saying is if the drive has sat longer than one year then you need to energize it for a few hours to reform the caps. Your supplier is wrong... or you misunderstood.. about closing the feeder (supply). You energize the supply but do not run a motor with it.

My Leeson drives also call for this except they are very clear in the instructions. Any drive that has sat for 6 month should be energized for three hours prior to use or capacitor damage can occur.

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: Is Precharge Required for Inverter Module?

01/13/2011 2:46 PM

Again the note regarding slowly pre-charging capacitors of inverters (variable speed drives, etc) if they have been sitting off for 6 months or more is common.

Electrolytic capacitors by their very nature 'break down' (the insulation between plates that is) over time and when power is applied to them they reform, the problem is that the reforming (leakage) current can stress the drives capacitor charging circuitry causing current limiting devices to operate (or in some cases the capacitor to rupture or vent). I have seen this in a number of cases.

Technically for all large electrolytic capacitors (the larger the more applicable) left discharged for long periods you should pre-charge them with a slowly increasing voltage (or voltage steps) to limit the inrush current and the potential stress and damage this can cause.

What happens in the real world is most people don't bother, and in some cases the drive capacitors (or drive electronics) fail prematurely. The note is in the manufacturer documentation as a "we told you so" both for their protection and for the users.

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#5

Re: Is Recharge Required for Inverter Module?

01/13/2011 4:43 PM

Your thread title said "Recharge", you later said "precharged". They are different things.

I think because of that thread title, this is being confused with STORAGE of a VFD. As I interpret the question using "pre-charge" I see a different issue; you are being told by ABB not to have the VFD in a Run state when you initially close the feeder, is that right?

This can theoretically be true of all brands of VFDs. The reason is that when you first energize a VFD from the line source, the DC bus capacitors have to charge for a few cycles before they get to full voltage and smooth out the ripple from the rectifier. To facilitate this they use what is called a "pre-charge resistor" that limits the current flow while the caps are charging and so that the transistors are not exposed to the ripple, which can make them falsely trigger. Without it, the drive transistors can fire on their own at the wrong times and die in short order. But the resistor is only in the circuit for a brief moment when the drive is initially powered, then it is shorted out. If the VFD is in a Run state when all this is happening, the transistors start seeing the raw rippled low voltage power right off the rectifier and that alone can damage them. In addition, pulling power off of the DC bus before the caps are fully charged can damage pre-charge resistor bypass and when it goes, the resistor doesn't get shorted out of the circuit, then it over heats and opens. Shortly thereafter the transistors die.

There are drives where this pre-charge resistor is not the problem, because they use a front-end rectifier that has SCRs instead of diodes. SCRs are used to slowly ramp the voltage into the capacitors. But that means you must have an SCR firing circuit for them, which adds complexity and a new point of failure. Lastly, some drives have "Line Regenerative" front ends, where essentially they have a 2nd inverse VFD so that they can re-fire excess energy from braking back into the line. Still though, you don't want the VFD in a Run state when being initially powered, because again, the capacitors will not be fully charged yet and you will have low DC rippled voltage on the bus.

All that this means is that you must have your control command system designed so that you wait a second or two before giving the drive a Run command when it is re-powered. Some drives power the control circuit FROM the DC bus, which inherently accomplishes this, others have a separate control power supply and it comes to life earlier than the DC bus. You need this configuration if you are using the SCR ramped rectifier, because you need to have the ramp generator powered BEFORE the DC bus is energized. This is where the danger lies and based on that comment I'd guess this is how the ACS800 is configured. That has become much more common now because of the power requirements of the VFD microprocessors.

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#10
In reply to #5

Re: Is Recharge Required for Inverter Module?

01/15/2011 11:35 PM

Sorry word confusion, most probably this correct answer

Thank you,

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#6

Re: Is Recharge Required for Inverter Module?

01/13/2011 11:16 PM

commonly,and mostly all inverters when they don't have any load at output,voltage goes higher than specks,so,to avoid this problen try to apply some load before you atemp to run it,take a reading note it and compare to specks,load should take a light drain,if so leave it on,then connect the divice in paralell,take another reading,it'll be on specks.

roberspier.

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: Is Recharge Required for Inverter Module?

01/14/2011 1:39 AM

The problem of reforming capacitors will not take place if the DC bus of inverter is performed on polypropylene capacitor (not electrolytic)

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#8

Re: Is Recharge Required for Inverter Module?

01/14/2011 2:00 AM

The poster has not cleared his point after so many reasonably good replies just on the assumption.

And common reason being seen is the "Capacitor-Bank" if left idle for long time Electrolytic capacitors start degrading in capacity & working-Voltage drop.

And what else is expected after prolong non-operating conditions of moving parts; Motor in this case.

But all is still on assumption till the question is elaborated.

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#9

Re: Is Recharge Required for Inverter Module?

01/14/2011 12:32 PM

If your supplier states that the VFD needs precharging before the feeder, this may imply either:

1. There is no charging circuit in this design so you must provide it according to their advice / recommendations OR

2. As other posts have interpreted, the main DC caps need reforming before you apply the VFD to use.

Can you clarify your question, please?

Some more specialised designs indeed do not include the charging circuit as I recently looked over such a design on a regenerative front end for a lift application, for example.

Or do you have an expanded DC link capacity for a longer mains ride through function?

Or is it just before using drives which have been in storage for some time?

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#11

Re: Is Recharge Required for Inverter Module?

01/16/2011 12:23 AM

I have commissioned ACS8000 VFD in our project(Destirct Cooling Plant rated at 60,000T and 120,000T - 24units) and i dont have any problem running the unit.

They only things that you should be aware are as follows:

1. You should have a solid experinece or training with this unit.

2. Follow the Programming and installation manual

3. Be aware of the application(pumps or Cooling tower application, etc.

4. Please check with supplier if the supplied VFD has no problem with IJBT(manufacturers defect on particular batch) which happens to us and they replaced it under their warranty obligation.

Regarding issue on precharging, this is manufacturer way of forcing you to get their services, check you contract if its included in their offer and decide.

Please take note that above Destrict Cooling Project mentioned above was delayed for more that a year and i dont have issue with it.

Should you need assitance, please feel free to contact me: nlparedes2006@ yahoo.com

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