High-Tech Lateral Locator?

Why does it matter so much to you? Have you asked the city where the lateral is, not where it's supposed to be?

If you think you have been "injured", hire a consultant, or a lawyer.

Good luck.

It matters to me because I continue to have sewer backup every couple of weeks. The lateral up to the intersection of the main sewer line is my responsibility. The city says the connection is 54 feet from the manhole, I say it is not but need to prove where it is. I don't have resources to hire a consultant, so I thought I might find one here that was willing to help. I think it's natural for you to question my motive, but attention to my not wanting to rent a pipe locator should have tipped you off to lack of resources. Thanks for your "advise".

Understanding your motivation for the question goes a long way toward having someone here willing to help.

The first question that needs an answer is, did the back-ups start after the new sewer construction? The more information you give, the better the response.

And, no, your not wanting to rent a pipe detector did not tip me off as to your lack of resources.

Good luck.

Yes, the backups started after the main sewer line was relined. I rented an auger to run the lateral from the cleanout inside my building, and got the line opened. I suspect the lateral is actually not connected to the main but dumping into a void or crevis along side the sewer main. I have had to run the line about every two weeks to keep it open. I have to go about 20 or 30 feet to get it open, and the distance to the main should only be about 15 feet from the cleanout.

The company that did the relining of this main showed me the blueprints of the sewer system which showed the lateral for my address being 54 feet from the manhole, but the cleanout inside and direction it seems to go doesn't align with that theory. He was going to run his camera down the line to see what was going on, but his crawler suddenly broke, so he was going to return the next day but never showed up again.

It's supposed to be a 21 inch main, and he told me they send a man up inside the pipe to cut the lateral openings. I don't doubt that the 54 foot mark is where the lateral was originally, and that is where they opened the connection. I believe the connection was changed at some point when my building was added onto, and the sewer blueprint was never updated.

I agree that it is the city's responsibility, but getting them to take that responsibility is another problem within itself. Just in case anyone is curious as to what city, it is Kansas City, Missouri. My business falls within the project area described in the link below.

http://www.kcmo.org/CKCMO/Depts/waterservices/targetgreen/index.htm

Sorry for all the rambling, but this link will give you a better idea of what I'm dealing with.

Sure, you can build such a device for $500. That'll save money hand-over-fist!

Perhaps you could ask the City if they had "as-constructed" or "as-built" plans prepared for the sewer rehabilitation project. Such plans are typically required by a municipality's public works department for sewer projects for the City's subsequent use. If so, find out if the City will provide you with a copy of these plans for the pipe run of interest. Further, there would likely have been an inspection of the rehabilitated sewer pipe performed after the liner was installed to verify the liner was properly installed and that may have been used to develop these "as-built" plans. This inspection would likely have been a video inspection performed by running a sewer-camera through the pipe. Ask to view the video or to get a copy for your personal use. If neither "as-built" plans nor a video of the sewer is available, you could ask the City to perform a video inspection for the sewer of interest based on the problems you cited.

Good luck.

If you know the approximate depth of burial you take a piece of 1/4 inch steel rod a little longer than that, sharpen it to a point, weld a T handle on it and probe for the line.

Find someone with a good treasure hunter/metal detector. Run a clean-out snake down the pipe from the inside of the building. You should be able to trace it from the surface, out side, even several feet down.

I have a top of the line White's metal detector. Finding that snake much more than a foot or so down would likely be a tall order. It would depend a lot on soil mineralization and assorted other trash in the ground, though.

A commercial grade detector designed specifically for that use would be a lot better but he did say he didn't have the resources to rent that.

Hooker

I have a Garret GTX1000 that is probably 15 years old. with a 12 inch search coil, I have no problem finding very small bits of foil several feet down. Granted, this is in a region of high lime stone content and very little iron or other metals.

Yeah, my White's DXF has similar capabilities, I believe. The problem, as I see it, is the urban environment described.

If I create a search profile that would detect a snake several feet down I would probably pick up every tab top and piece of foil and iron oxide within 3 feet or so, and discriminating out all that ferrous junk to find the ferrous snake is nearly impossible. That's in my experience, of course, with my 10+ year old machine which is general purpose and multi-mode (prospector or treasure hunter). Your Garret may have parameter settings much different from mine that could get that job done.

Hooker

Typically, any municipally-owner utility within a Right-Of-Way is own by that utility, including but not limited to: sanitary mains, sanitary laterals, sanitary force mains, manholes, and pump stations. I haven't even begun to mention other municipally-owned utilities such as storm sewers and water mains. The exceptions will be corporate-owned and Authority-owned underground and aboveground utilities.

Since the sanitary lines are most likely municipally-owned and maintained you have a right under state and federal statutes to file a FOIL with your city. In your FOIL request/application ask for all copies of pertinent existing documents such as construction drawings and Record Drawings (also known as "As-Built Drawings") that went out to Public Bidding and were ultimately constructed within the street in question for all water main and lateral work, sewer main and lateral work, and storm sewer main and lateral work. Also, ask for copies of all pertinent survey maps, field notes and sketches made by the Engineer of Record, the Contractors, Independent Inspection Agencies, and the City Engineer's Office. Additionally, ask for all sanitary sewer videotape conducted for before construction and after construction. I would hazard a guess that someone somewhere has access to all "tie-off" measurements that locate each and every lateral connection along that sanitary sewer main.

The only drawback to a FOIL is it's cost to you for the City to reproduce the documents that you request. Ask to review all city-owned documents on file prior to the city reporoducing them. Evaluate each carefully and choose wisely which ones will aid you in either locating the actual lateral connection to the main as well as any future litigation that may arise. That way it will not cost you too much.

I believe that you would be fooling yourself if you haven't discuss with an attorney any litigation against the City and the Contractor responsible for doing the construction work, especially since you have experienced repeated damages to your property since the work was completed. Keep a log (or try to re-create one) of every incidence of damages and the amount of money it has cost you to rectifiy those damages. Keep receipts for contractors or yourself to do the clean-up work and any damage basement materials and equipment. You'll need these records to bolster your case in a court of law.

I hope this info helps you. Good luck with that sewer lateral!

signed,

===CaptMoosie, LPE/PhD

Civil, Structural & Environmental Engineer

(Former City Engineer for a small upstate New York city)

With enough water flow from your building and vehicle traffic, you should be able to see a sink hole starting to develop. I had personal experience with this type of situation at a Hotel I worked at in Denver Colorado. They had constant sewer back-ups and a developing sink hole. I kept telling them the problem laid below the sink hole. After 2 years of fighting the back ups, they had some "yahoo" come out with a high pressure water jet, who ran over 200 feet of hose down a clean out that was 45 feet from the man hole and was not able to retrieve it. After every thing was expose, we found the lateral separated and was 24 inches off centered with 155 feet of hose wrapped around it.

Yes, a low very tech way of locating.

Thank you all for your input and advice. It looks like I'm going to have to rent the pipe locator. I just thought with all the brilliant minds around here that maybe someone could tell me how to make a transmitter that I could tune into with my lab scope or maybe even an am radio or something of that nature. If I had my choice, I'd rather spend a hundred bucks building something that I would still have rather than rent.

I have seen the blueprint or map that the contractor was given to work from, and it shows the lateral connection to be 54 feet from the manhole, but that doesn't mean it wasn't changed at some point and never recorded. I will prove that the lateral was not connected properly sooner or later.

Thanks again for your time and input.

Just speculating here but you could pick up a cheap pair of walky talkies (under $20) and use one as a transmitter. With transmit key locked on and adequately protected, of course, attached to your snake. Can you configure your lab scope to receive public band and hook a directional antenna to it?

Hooker

I'm not sure. It's an older Sun LS 2000 dual trace designed for testing automotive sensors and circuits. It's bandwidth is 10Hz to 500 kHz. It seems like most of those walkie talkies operate around 2.4 gHz, so probably won't work. The manual does say under Interface format RS232C, Talk/listen with optional adapter.

Our local drain service has a camera to go down the line, but it's not cheap. He charges two or three hundred bucks for a viewing, but then you have video proof of what is what.

I've seen shows about relining sewers. It's great for the main pipe, but I don't see much concern for side connections. Even a camera going down the main won't show if your pipe is disconnected somewhere or broken.