Previous in Forum: Technical   Next in Forum: What Welder For A Beginner?
Close
Close
Close
16 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: I'm outa here
Posts: 1924
Good Answers: 196

Assigning Costs to Food Production for VA Taxation

02/19/2011 7:58 PM

How would you separate costs of food growing, food processing, food packaging, storage, delivery and sale for the purposes of value added taxation? Value added taxes like they do in the EU are getting some lift from folks who don't like income taxes and see a VA tax as a replacement. A simple VAT on all food could follow the traditional model based on monetary value of each step in the process that carries an actual commercial price and contractual exchange of money for product. But suppose we want to tax only those steps that cause harm?

At this same time we are in a debate about whether the nanny state ought to control what we eat. Research is beginning to show that heavily processed foods are less healthful than unprocessed foods and tend to add to various health problems and their associated costs.

Corn syrup is the latest "whipping boy" although proving and actually quantifying a direct link to, say diabetes, is a daunting challenge.

Food tends to be one of the last things we would consider taxing, However, if we are convinced, even without definitive research, that certain components of our food have a link to our health care costs, part of which are inevitably paid for by everybody via government expenditures, then a case can be made for an apportioned tax. Such a tax would be expected to create a bias pushing consumption toward less harmful foods while covering direct societal costs of the more harmful types.

As I suggested above it is hard to make definitive connections between agent and health cost. But in a stable society legal and regulation structures improve with time by a cut and try process ever improving the whole. The same can be said for science as well.

So my purpose here is to ask how could we begin to fine tune such a taxation process to satisfy ourselves that the right things were taxed? How do we do it without taking 20 years to build an impossible code of regulations for each and every food? Can we find the measurable categories or characteristics that are worthy of taxation rather than deal with a million individual items?

A bit of a disclaimer here……….This topic can easily devolve into "I don't want to be taxed or told what and how much I can eat" rants that are pretty much unproductive and will only get people here into spitting matches. So let's stick to science such as it is, whatever logic derives from it and suggestions that have some practicality of implementation. ……..OK?

Ed Weldon

Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.
Anonymous Poster
#1

Re: Assigning costs to food production for VA taxation

02/19/2011 8:09 PM

I haven't studied VATs very closely, but they sound like a data collection nightmare rife with opportunities for slanted self-reporting. Like sales taxes, they tend (I suspect) to be unprogressive; i.e., falling higher on low-income persons.

Tornado

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: I'm outa here
Posts: 1924
Good Answers: 196
#2
In reply to #1

Re: Assigning costs to food production for VA taxation

02/19/2011 8:22 PM

Tornado - VAT taxes are just a creative form of sales taxes. Such a tax will indeed be regressive. Applied to harmful food components it directly affects the very demographic who are least likely to take care of their health. That may be a good thing.

BTW, I and anybody who through prudent saving has accumulated a decent stake of after tax liquid assets will not be happy about that money being taxed a second time at rates in the same range as federal income taxes they might replace.

Please let's not go any further off topic with this line of thought at least until we get some relevant "on topic" postings...

Thanks, Ed

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - bwire Hobbies - Car Customizing - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Upper Mid-west USA
Posts: 7498
Good Answers: 97
#3

Re: Assigning costs to food production for VA taxation

02/19/2011 8:52 PM

First define what is a food. No I'm not being anal, take Ethanol is it a food? Or Toluene is a food? One wouldn't think so but each is used in production of a common sweetener and so when is it then taxed and for fuel or food or both?? IMHO VAT is one step on the way to failure for the US

__________________
If death came with a warning there would be a whole lot less of it.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: I'm outa here
Posts: 1924
Good Answers: 196
#4
In reply to #3

Re: Assigning costs to food production for VA taxation

02/19/2011 9:35 PM

I suppose the most convenient way to define food is the same way it is defined for regulatory purposes. Foods are pretty well defined as such by and/or for the FDA. I'm sure there is such a as thing FDA approved "pure" ethnanol to be used in appropriate quantities as a food additive or ingredient. Ethanol, in appropriate amounts doesn't worry me so much. I like my wine and beer and there is a body of research that supports the health benefits of wine in moderate quantities.

Toluene doesn't sound to me as quite the appropriate member of the "food" category; but again, it is a matter of quantity. Even methylene chloride, pretty nasty stuff, is used to decafinate coffee and I think it's caustic soda (have I got that right?) that is used to take the skin off peaches for canning. We have hydrochloric acid at a pretty low pH level in our stomachs and our digestive processes produce sulphur compounds in potentially dangerous quantities, not to mention large amounts of potentially harmful bacteria.

So perhaps the governing criteria for taxation designed to mitigate harm to health would be based on the maximum allowable levels per unit (weight, volume, calorie, or?) of any particular ingredient of the food. Accepted research can pinpoint those numbers; but the vast majority of the thresholds will be judgement calls by annointed experts based (hopefully) on some decent science. Now the problem becomes one of measuring the thresholds and administering such an extensive program covering tens of thousands of food products. Already food producers are chafinf under regulations requiring them to list ingretients and calorie counts. And sure enough they are already monkeying around with the sizes of the servings.

In passing, I do not want to use this topic as a forum for debating the merits of a VAT in general. I don't like it myself as a major government revenue source. But as a taxing methology to meet specific worthy objectives it may well have merit if the administration is fair and practical. The latter is the issue at hand here.

Ed Weldon

Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - bwire Hobbies - Car Customizing - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Upper Mid-west USA
Posts: 7498
Good Answers: 97
#5
In reply to #4

Re: Assigning costs to food production for VA taxation

02/20/2011 3:11 AM

Taxation isn't the answer it's productivity which taxation may eliminate in the present economic climate. We can't keep bolstering failing industries like aging hippies attending liberal arts colleges avoiding a degree; substantive action is imperative. Chucking the present government platform in favor of the true form prior to Truman for example. As we now have the executive branch in control our system is in disarray and unworkable. I'm not espousing civil disobedience

__________________
If death came with a warning there would be a whole lot less of it.
Register to Reply
Anonymous Poster
#6
In reply to #4

Re: Assigning costs to food production for VA taxation

02/20/2011 3:31 AM

Fortunately there is no inflation except for health care, fuel, food and property taxes.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: I'm outa here
Posts: 1924
Good Answers: 196
#9
In reply to #6

Re: Assigning costs to food production for VA taxation

02/20/2011 10:48 AM

Inflation in health care is a complex thing and perhaps suitable for another CR-4 topic since a lot of it is due to technology innovations.

Inflation in food and fuel costs is due primarily to the current scarcity of these commodities. It is purposely separated from monetary inflation in the statistics because it just muddles up the signals in the control system that our Fed and other central bankers use to try and control the money supply. If you're a sparky you'll know what I mean when I use the words "control", "signal" and "system".

If you've noticed, in the the last couple of years property taxes have gone down in most places due to decreasing property notices.

Ed Weldon

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 1294
Good Answers: 35
#11
In reply to #9

Re: Assigning costs to food production for VA taxation

02/20/2011 10:58 AM

Re: If you've noticed, in the the last couple of years property taxes have gone down in most places due to decreasing property notices.

I guess you meant "decreasing property prices"? Hasn't happened around me, anywhere that I know about. Property prices go down, put assessments don't change (and millage (sp?) rates keep going up). So, I'm wondering if you really know about "most places"?

Re: It is purposely separated from monetary inflation in the statistics because it just muddles up the signals in the control system that our Fed and other central bankers use to try and control the money supply.

Maybe that's part of the reason, or the reason for some people, but I think it's also part of an effort to not report the whole problem.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: I'm outa here
Posts: 1924
Good Answers: 196
#13
In reply to #11

Re: Assigning costs to food production for VA taxation

02/20/2011 11:56 AM

Re: If you've noticed, in the the last couple of years property taxes have gone down in most places due to decreasing property notices. (I should have said "prices")

rhkramer -- You caught me on that. I don't have the nationwide numbers to support my assertion. In CA where I live the elected assessors are required to peg taxes to actual property values and a property owner can formally appeal his tax assessment at any time. Frankly I figured it was that way in most other states. But I admit I was guessing.

Ed Weldon

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 1294
Good Answers: 35
#14
In reply to #13

Re: Assigning costs to food production for VA taxation

02/20/2011 3:56 PM

Thanks for the reply!

I'll have to look into it and see if I can appeal my assessment--I think there are a whole bunch of restrictive rules about that.

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - bwire Hobbies - Car Customizing - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Upper Mid-west USA
Posts: 7498
Good Answers: 97
#8
In reply to #4

Re: Assigning costs to food production for VA taxation

02/20/2011 9:37 AM

Ed thanks for starting such discussion and excuse the temerity of some comments; it's opinion of many that disdain of taxation was a principle issue at our countries beginning. What added percentage of my income is it thought should now go other than to me?

__________________
If death came with a warning there would be a whole lot less of it.
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: I'm outa here
Posts: 1924
Good Answers: 196
#12
In reply to #8

Re: Assigning costs to food production for VA taxation

02/20/2011 11:20 AM

If you study the history of our nation's beginnings you will observe that the issue was not taxation per se but rather taxation without representation. When we formed a representative democracy we though we had solved that problem. But for better or worse we added a Bill of Rights that included provisions like freedom of speech, and the right to association and petition the government. These particular seeds planted some 225 years ago have grown into the current crop of powerful lobbies and the legal bribery of campaign contributions. So most of us who are not part of the new ruling class of "special interests" are again faced with taxation without representation.

With respect to what part of your taxes should be of benefit to you I'd say all of your taxes. The problem is that you do not see that happening. You are still thinking like the lizard hiding in your genes. Higher animal life evolved and became the ultimate success that we know as the human species because we learned to cooperate together. Even in a pride of lions the strongest work to make the kill so that all can eat. And when all can eat the young and weak can grow and prosper also. Please tell me what's wrong with that model.

Ed Weldon

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 468
#7

Re: Assigning Costs to Food Production for VA Taxation

02/20/2011 9:10 AM

Here's a link that ties into your thread Ed. Part of the problem is that the experts can't seem to reach a consensus on what's bad for us. Attempting to assign taxes on certain foods based on whether they are harmful I think would be a nightmare. The lawyers would be very busy I would think.

Then there are things that we require in modest amounts, but too much is bad. Think salt.

http://www.foodnavigator-usa.com/Legislation/EPA-says-saccharin-should-be-taken-off-hazardous-list

Ironically, some of the most unhealthy and obese among us are the poor. They are also a large drain on our healthcare system.

Sorry if this sounds cruel, or is off topic, but I think people that are buying their food primarily with foodstamps should only be able to buy certain foods from an approved list, i.e. no more chips, cookies, ding dongs or any of that other junk with foodstamps.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: I'm outa here
Posts: 1924
Good Answers: 196
#15
In reply to #7

Re: Assigning Costs to Food Production for VA Taxation

02/20/2011 9:28 PM

I think we could create an advisory panel of doctors and scientists and immunize them from political influence as best we could. Such an entity would set the menu of foods allowable under the food stamp program as well as which foods or classes of foods and their specific production steps would would be subject to the VAT system I'm talking about here.

I would propose that specific veto of their recommendations would be at a cabinet member level and be immediately reportable to the public on an item by item basis. I think it would be impossible to administer a codification in law of numerical thresholds of harm for each and every food we eat. There has to be an educated judgement method of doing this if it's going to work.

I don't see anything cruel about restricting government subsidized food to those items that are sufficiently nutricious and not harmful by some reasonable science based measure. I absolutely see no cruelty in denying free luxuries to people who don't need them for their physical well being. The day that we make entertainment and "luxuries" an entitlement is a a day I don't want to see and deeply resist supporting. So what's a luxury? I don't know how to define it; but I'll know it when I see it.

Ed Weldon

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 13529
Good Answers: 468
#16
In reply to #15

Re: Assigning Costs to Food Production for VA Taxation

02/21/2011 6:45 AM

I'm all for a VA tax, a flat tax, national sales tax, etc...............if it replaces our current nightmarish tax code.

I think US citizens, of both parties, are growing weary of more taxation heaped onto the taxes we already pay.

As far as our current economic crisis, there were a handful of economists screaming about the impending collapse, that were ignored. A relative few people made decisions that led to this crisis, I'd like to see them tracked down and prosecuted. Barring that, we should at least be tracking down the loopholes and mechanisms that were in place that allowed this to happen, and eliminating them.

Here's an idea of my current taxes as a self employed person. Say I make $100.

Social security 15%

State/Federal tax 30%

NC sales tax 7.5%

Last time I checked I think state/fed taxes on a gallon of gasoline was .47 per gallon. ( It's written on those little stickers on the pumps).

Also out of my $100, I have to pay property tax on my house, vehicle tax on my cars, as well as inspection and registration fees. Aside from the taxes, I have to pay homeowners insurance, car insurance, and healthcare insurance, (which is now more than my mortgage).

Regardless of what they are for, there's just no way I will ever think that we need more taxes.

__________________
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Ben Franklin
Register to Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - bwire Hobbies - Car Customizing - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Upper Mid-west USA
Posts: 7498
Good Answers: 97
#10

Re: Assigning Costs to Food Production for VA Taxation

02/20/2011 10:58 AM

Scary, VAT at a molecular level http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bhz9gVkwu-A&feature=player_embedded tax is not mentioned, strange

__________________
If death came with a warning there would be a whole lot less of it.
Register to Reply
Register to Reply 16 comments
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Anonymous Poster (2); bwire (4); Ed Weldon (6); kramarat (2); rhkramer (2)

Previous in Forum: Technical   Next in Forum: What Welder For A Beginner?

Advertisement