Apprentices/Tradesmen Ratio

In the US, the plumbers and pipefitters once specified a ratio of one apprentice per six journeypersons. Whether or not this was "optimum" (and how could one ever really tell?), it was part of the union contract. There would surely not be a one-size-fits-all "ideal mix." (There are some Fermi problems that are simply not calculable. Period.)

I have always used 10:1 Seems to work out the best in terms of keeping them employed through out the apprenticeship and giving them meaningful training. I also rotate them within the Trades Journeymen, so they get a better all around bite into the trades.

I feel it depends on what trade ... then I think it depends on the level of quality of work you produce out of your workshop.

When I did my apprenticeship the ratio was generally 3 tradesmen to a apprentice but in some union shops the ratio was laid down by the union.

Most companies that I know of are not that happy with the apprenticeship scheme ...

tafe generally is unable to keep up with the latest equipment for the workshop side and have cut a lot out of the theory side.

Then you have the education of young people who are not going onto a academic career but into trades, etc ... most employers find their education has been neglected in as far as outfitting for a trade.

Some companies are now putting their tradesmen into dustcoats and employing people off the street teaching them to work 1 machine only and using their tradesmen to supervise them to set up machines, change tools and maintain the machine assigned to them and then for the programming of the machines ... cnc ... employing some one in the office to just write programmes for those machines.

It is of great concern to a lot of people that the apprenticeship scheme as is , is outdated and needs a different philosophy.

I believe that people that wish to go into a trade should do all their theory and do a blocks of work experience with a commercial workshop. On finishing the course at a "tafe" they would go for interviews based on their achievements ... some people do better at different things within any one trade and allow the employer to pick someone that suits his needs.

Some years ago meaning at least 12 plus years ago in the fitting and machining trade I took part in an exercise for working out the cost of employing an apprentice ... 51000.00 dollars for a first year apprentice ... wages + wage over heads + equipment + floor space + etc, ... be a bit more now days, apprentices are not cheap labour but an expensive investment, if you can retain them at the end of the apprenticeship, but a bad investment if you cannot retain them.

A friend of mine was telling me he worked out the cost of his apprentice having time of for tafe as the 500000.00 machine he worked stood idle, and as he does not have excess staff standing around, it sits there not being used.

I feel the time has come where the cost of training apprentices should be spread, and not fully on the employer and also allow the employer to choose an "apprentice" based on their ability to learn at their own expense and time ... I feel we would see a better level of passes.

batt

You mean how many illegal aliens we have on our jobsite at any one given time? So Cal viewpoint--There are no apprentices, only labor, some good some bad--No trade training anymore--No shops in schools--The Lawyers got those thrown out with Litigation--The last wave of Immigrants, with skills , came from the Guilds in Europe, in starting in the late 1900's, in which a man could become a Journeyman by the age of 22, and go out, hang out a shingle, and support a family as a full Tradesman_The Immigrants we have here now, have no knowledge of Wood, steel, or machining (it doesn't exist in the countries they are coming from, as opposed to the European tradesmen, who were at least LITERATE)--They are somewhat proficient at brick and block, as that is what they have learned in their countries--Hard to take someone , who is Illiterate, and have them on a jobsite with plans--Same with a Machine shop, or a printing operation, or High Rise Crane work --It is not that they do not want to learn--THEY ARE ILLITERATE!! They are unable to read and write in their own language, let alone English, and our own kids do not want work anymore--Everything has been handed to them on a platter, so what do you do??? Sorry for the rant, but many times I will jsut send them home, as I can do the work faster, with more skill, in half the time, as I have no more patience or money left in the bid---Just me--Other opinions available, I am sure..

Based on what you have said I am sure you can understand why I am somewhat defensive of our Apprenticeship Scheme.

The ratio is hard to judge as many tradesmen are so in name only and were too lazy to learn their trade when given the chance. Bad tradesmen drag apprentices down, yet one good tradesman can support and mentor several apprentices successfully. It is also necessary to choose wisely when employing apprentices.

I've seen the full gamut, from a mine site that shall remain anonymous where 50 year old "fifth year apprentices" who did not move on years ago when they finished their time pollute the work culture and reduce the learning outcomes for new apprentices, to workshops around Mackay where the work of the Apprentices carried the businesses during the build up to the GFC. Some of those "Puds" have since finished their time and are already in responsible positions during the recovery, having already earned their stripes.

So I suppose there is no exact ratio, it all depends on workplace culture and the quality of both the tradesmen and apprentices.

Expecting to keep apprentices after their time stifles the young tradesman's growth and runs the cultural risk of the mine site mentioned above. Many employers in this area give the new tradesman 6 months to find somewhere else, but leave the door open for their return when experienced.

In a related topic, by my experience adult apprentices seem to shine. Also I feel under educated apprentices find it harder especially in the Electrical and Heavy Equipment Fitting Trades.

The ratio of apprentices to journeymen has been an issue of contention between unions, companies, countries, etc., I have seen that a good ratio is generally of one per every 4 journeymen, depending on trade and specific job conditions.

I am a union pipefitter in California. The ratio here is 1 on 1. You have to be very carefull though. If you use apprentices on high risk jobs such as rigging with crane picks high pressure gas etc. the risks outweigh the benifits. My company bids work 1 on 1 to compete with the lower skilled non union workers. I have ran jobs installing boilers chillers towers and piping with a 6 to 1 ratio due to the risks involved and needing more skilled journeymen. They came in on time and made money. Apprentices here go to 5 years of training in a state approved program. The trade is changing rapidly due to cad detailing and prefabrication. All the thinking is being taken out of the work. Instead of journeymen fitting and welding on the job material is delivered spooled out with field welds and bolt up left. That is one reason for a higher ratio of apprentices.