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Anonymous Poster #1

Trip Shaft Break, Interanl Crack , Surface Crack,Heat Treatment

06/04/2011 2:07 AM

Dear Sir:

Switchgear mechanism latch consits of two component one is Shaft and other is latch component,

Shaft is D cut and latch area (overlap ) area is 1 mm.

we are producing more than 5000 breaer in a year and failure PPM is 4000 i.e. .4%.

at test bed and at field.

Our R&R team has analysed the breaked shaft and found crakc at break area.

Now question is whether crack developed due to fatigue or machining or presence in raw materail only.

Shaft materail : En19 (4142) : earlier throuhg hardned not nitriding case hardented.

So my question is :

1) How by seeing the crack we can understand the source of crack.

2) as breaking percentage is only 0.4 so what analysis should we do.

3) Will nitriding case hardening will improve our result compare to through case hardening.

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Anonymous Poster #2
#1

Re: trip shaft break, interanl crack , surface crack,heat treatment

06/04/2011 2:14 AM

Please edit and resubmit?

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Guru
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#2

Re: trip shaft break, interanl crack , surface crack,heat treatment

06/04/2011 2:31 AM

What company do you work for? I ask so I can avoid your products!

You know you have a flawed product, it's time to re-design it.

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: trip shaft break, interanl crack , surface crack,heat treatment

06/04/2011 3:37 AM

Thank you for your reply

I am vikash Agrawal working with Crompton greveas , Nashik.

Plz let me know

on what basis you are saying this is flawed design.

as we are using this product last 10-15 years and product ppm is 4000.

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Guru
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#4
In reply to #3

Re: trip shaft break, interanl crack , surface crack,heat treatment

06/04/2011 3:59 AM

"on what basis you are saying this is flawed design."

On the basis that your asking on the web about solutions to failures.

I've only had dealings with Crompton switchgear once, it was so bad that 2/3rds of the board was scrapped before it was commissioned. Only the ACB's were retained, all the out going switches were replaced with GE.

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Guru
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#5

Re: trip shaft break, interanl crack , surface crack,heat treatment

06/04/2011 4:08 AM

You have to be the same poster as this ?

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/69178#newcomments

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#6
In reply to #5

Re: trip shaft break, interanl crack , surface crack,heat treatment

06/04/2011 4:09 AM

Yes , as forum member suggested that your should log you discusisonin electrical engg forum

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Guru
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#7
In reply to #6

Re: trip shaft break, interanl crack , surface crack,heat treatment

06/04/2011 4:12 AM

Yes, that is a good thing. Please check the other one also, i have made one comment there....thanks.

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Guru

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#8

Re: trip shaft break, interanl crack , surface crack,heat treatment

06/04/2011 5:32 AM

You should send a drawing / picture of the shaft and indicate where the crack occurs. A picture of the broken parts (both sides of the cracked zone) is also agood help for the analysis. The crack surface can indicate if it is a crack due to heat treatment or to loading and fatigue. The drawing is required in order to establish the importanace of possible stress concentration. If you do not want to open it for all use the private message.

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#9
In reply to #8

Re: trip shaft break, interanl crack , surface crack,heat treatment

06/04/2011 6:32 AM

Thank you for your reply.

May i know your good name anad contact address / email.

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Guru

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#12
In reply to #9

Re: trip shaft break, interanl crack , surface crack,heat treatment

06/04/2011 11:51 AM

If you look at the screen when you choose my "name" then you see a mention : send a private message to.. use it.

All assumptions can be right but all are "blind" assumptions (which will not reduce at all their value) it is better to see a failure for an analysis. Forensic cannot be made without the " corpse".

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Anonymous Poster #3
#10

Re: Trip Shaft Break, Interanl Crack , Surface Crack,Heat Treatment

06/04/2011 10:24 AM

The switcgears are not likely to work for so many cycles (Assuming it is a fairly high voltage) that there is a possibility of a mechanical fatigue.

If I take of this possibility then there are the possibility of

- Thermal fatigue

- Vibration induced fatigue.

I doubt either of these two.

next part your failure rate is 4000PPM ie out of 5000 breakers you are producing 20 are failing at your bench or at customer end.

Question- At customer end are these in infant mortality stage ? I assume so.

I will interpret these as a manufacturing fault and not the basic design fault.

As KVS has pointed out the case hardening will help but they usually help in improving the fatigue life (case prevents initiation, core prevents growth)

BTW- howmany cycles are tested at your bench and after how many do they fail?

If it is sufficiently low, it will further strengthen the case of non-fatigue. I feel it has got soething to do with either misalignment of misengagement of latch of someone else that is creating a bending moment at your keyway (ie the latch engagement slot) that is breaking it. The crack must be initiating at the corner (wait but that is obvious since for both fatigue as well as brittle failure mode it would be at the weakest and hence most stressed point ).

To confirm it you may take to any failure analysis lab. The SEM (Scanning electron Microscope since a lot of ouer members don't like acronyms) will exactly bring out the crack initiation, growth and failure mechanism. In absence of SEM any high resolution optical microsope also will be able to guess.

The case hardening will help but not much if it is due to the causes I guessed, in case of these it will fail sooner or later.

Have you found any abnormal loading/ rubbing/ other marks in the failed parts and the parts having contact with it?

The model of KVS was helpful in visualising a bit. And though I am Electrical, but not in SG field and now in purely mechanical field so i am guessing mechanically.

Please again note this degree of PPM usually denote manufacturing defect (of course raw material is a part of it and could be ascertained by the failure zone microscopy).

the only fault of design may be it is not a fail-safe design and has not taken care of practical exxects of misalignments or something (which you will find causing the failure). In a certain of our designs we have found that the engaging is too fast and the damping is late so that in case of error it will hit before it slows down. Some cushioning helped in those. In other cases we redesigned to negate the negative effects generated without sacrificing the requirements.

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Guru
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#11
In reply to #10

Re: Trip Shaft Break, Interanl Crack , Surface Crack,Heat Treatment

06/04/2011 11:16 AM

Excellent analysis. A good answer, pity that you did not register. Any particular reason (for not registering i mean?).

20 CBs/year is very high ! Alarming i am sure to all at Nashik.

(i expect this is MV, since (a) the LV division of CGL has been bought by Schneider Electric and moved to Hyderabad, and (b) the 18mm Dshaft implies a massive mechanism, not that elegant Masterpact and (c) Vikas hasn't answered my question whether he works for Shneider!)

This may be the old Crompton Parkinson breaker from the days of British overdesign. But then, that had no chance of failure. So massive.

Anyway, it is up to Vikas to enlighten us !

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Anonymous Poster #3
#13
In reply to #11

Re: Trip Shaft Break, Interanl Crack , Surface Crack,Heat Treatment

06/06/2011 8:32 AM

I am a registered member (Now for last year or so CR4 is anyway not allowing the guests).

Earlier I was not logging in and now I am forced to log-in (whe I feel I may help out some one) but still continuing incognito.

BTW: the OP should not start multi threads on same subject. He loses track as do we.

He should continue on the same thread so that any one newly joining (the thread, not CR4 ) gets the history from beginning. Eg for visualising the mechanism, I had to go to the therad, which fortunately and most helpfully you referred in your post.

I think we may ourself try to guide the OP back, especially the new ones eg a comment like

"Please re-post this query in your previous thread".

Of course not at the cost of making a thread like Bath Breaking technique or some other ones which has seeped into history unlike BBT.

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Anonymous Poster (3); kvsridhar (3); nick name (2); TonyS (2); vikash.agrawal (3)

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