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Surface Crack Internal Crack in En19 Shaft (18 mm dia)

06/03/2011 12:14 AM

In Switchgear ,Spring charging mechansim is used for instant closing and opening.

For instant closing , spring energy stored through latch.

Latch consisit of Shaft and latch component.

On shaft Impact force come during latching and some case it break.

After analysis it is found , surface crack or internal crack is root cause.

Can any body tell me

1) How internal crack can be detected for 18 mm diameter shaft.

2) Why crack developed.

3) Will case hardening has some advantges over through hardening to avoid crack.

4) How crack can be measure.

regards,

Vikash Agrawal

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#1

Re: Surface crack internal crack in En19 shaft (18 mm dia)

06/03/2011 2:22 AM

Yes, case hardening will be better, since the softer core will prevent impact fracture. You may perhaps use EN36A for this. Latch pins are usually case-hardened anyway, to withstand wear. As is the latch too..

What do Schneider do, have you asked ? (i am assuming you are part of Schneider?)

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: Surface crack internal crack in En19 shaft (18 mm dia)

06/03/2011 3:44 AM

Thank you for joining the discussion.

I am Vikash Agrawal , Working with Crompton greaves , Nasik.

What about you?

Case hardening is always better for impact loading.

but i it will reduce crack developement during manufacturing and as well as loading.

and what kindly of experiment we should do to prover the advantage of case hardening over through hardening ,

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: Surface crack internal crack in En19 shaft (18 mm dia)

06/03/2011 4:06 AM

i thought as much seeing cgl in your id Not the part taken over by Schneider?

Anyway, i was with many companies, and am now retired and working as a consultant.

In one of my designs, i used 100Cr6 steel for the application you mention, latch shaft. Hardenable to 60HRc, though i specified 50-55 HRc. i do believe at 18mm dia, it will get thru-hardened. Still, i wasable to reduce the impact by restricting the travel of the latch, so that its velocity is low when latching, after the spring is charged. Haven't seen any failures over the last 5 years.

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#4

Re: Surface Crack Internal Crack in En19 Shaft (18 mm dia)

06/03/2011 10:42 PM

you mention -

"After analysis it is found , surface crack or internal crack is root cause."

what analysis have you carried out?

analysis of the nature of the crack? of the root cause of the crack?

is this a "one of" failure? or a "frequent occurrence"? or a "consistent repeat"?

if it a field failure? or a product under development?

the said shaft may have been made from defective material in the first place - in which case the design specification being correct and yet there is a sourcing and/or incoming quality lapse.

is the failure really in torsion? i suggest you do not rule out an additional shear component in your analysis. i have seen (not in circuit breakers though) that have failed due to combined effect of torsion and shear at points of support.

what is the magnitude of the torque? and how much is the angular movement? in how much time does the movement happen?

you have asked a very good question. addressing some raised by me will help you along in your striving for a solution.

i suggest you also take this question to the electrical engineering board of CR4 - many switchgear professionals there will share their experience . . . .

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#5

Re: Surface Crack Internal Crack in En19 Shaft (18 mm dia)

06/03/2011 11:02 PM

.

1) How internal crack can be detected for 18 mm diameter shaft.

Ultrasonic or Radio graphical examination.

2) Why crack developed.

Wrong heat treatment process selection or wrong choice of material. . 4130 steel with a normalized core and surface case hardened either through carburizing or nitriding might meet your needs.

3) Will case hardening has some advantages over through hardening to avoid crack.

Most certainly as rightly diagnosed by kvsridhar.

4) How crack can be measured.

Ultrasonic or through radiography. External cracks can be readily detected and measured through magnetic particle crack check or dye penetrant check.

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Guru
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#6
In reply to #5

Re: Surface Crack Internal Crack in En19 Shaft (18 mm dia)

06/04/2011 1:02 AM

Wholesome answer, GA.

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#7

Re: Surface Crack Internal Crack in En19 Shaft (18 mm dia)

06/04/2011 1:56 AM

Dear Sir:

First of all i would like to appriciate the intellectual answer given by forum member.

Now Coming back to your question .

Switchgear mechanism latch consits of two component one is Shaft and other is latch component,

Shaft is D cut and latch area (overlap ) area is 1 mm.

we are producing more than 5000 breaer in a year and failure PPM is 4000 i.e. .4%.

at test bed and at field.

Our R&R team has analysed the breaked shaft and found crakc at break area.

Now question is whether crack developed due to fatigue or machining or presence in raw materail only.

Shaft materail : En19 (4142) : earlier throuhg hardned not nitriding case hardented.

So my question is :

1) How by seeing the crack we can understand the source of crack.

2) as breaking percentage is only 0.4 so what analysis should we do.

3) Will nitriding case hardening will improve our result compare to through case hardening.

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#8
In reply to #7

Re: Surface Crack Internal Crack in En19 Shaft (18 mm dia)

06/04/2011 2:33 AM

i have done some analysis and simulation of the Masterpact ACB of Schneider, which uses the "D-shaft"+Latch system. Here is an image. i expect your CB has a similar system, thought this one is a small Dshaft (8mm i think).

i am not sure of the material, it was 58-61 HRc, which made me think of using bearing steel, EN31, thru-hardened. The stroke of the latch is ≈ 2mm, so the impact is not much.

Sorry i can't help more, being an electrical engineer.

i expect case-hardening will help, since you only need a hard outer surface for wear resistance.

Good luck.

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#9

Re: Surface Crack Internal Crack in En19 Shaft (18 mm dia)

06/06/2011 12:18 PM

Integrating all of the information provided in this post and your subsequent one about nitriding, I would like to provide a quantitative view from the outside.

Your rate of occurrence when calculated out equals 20 shafts (at 175 mm each in length.) This is also equivalent to one bar of 11.5 feet long. (sorry fopr the mixed units, university was SI, Experience is Imperial)

It is a very reasonable supposition that a single bar of 4 meters in length with a seam is the source of the Failed parts.

Your "analysis" is insufficent when it says tha tthere is a crack. That is an observation.

Describe the nature of the crack. is it a uniform texture from bar od to center? is there a different surface texture immediately adjacent to the sureface of the bar, as opposed top farther in? Has the crack been examined by a metallurgist and reported the presence or absence of decarburization , scale or other "Indicators" tha might be used to determine if the crack existed pre or post heat treating?

To just change process without identifying the root cause is extreme folly.

If in tfact the root casue was a single bar with a seam from your supplier, What will happen differently with your new heat treat process?

NOTHING.

Get to root cause before heeding well meaning but not necessarily applicable to your specuific instance advice.

Is there decarb in the crack?

Is there evidence of scale in the crack?

What other aspects of your process could possibly correlate to the rate of failure beside s asingle bar length?

Why dod you think changing heat treat will make a difference when you are at tcurrent ppm rate that you have? how will the change proposed reduce that?

I am all for sharing good ideas and experience, but until one identifies and can turn on and off the defect, one is only rolling the dice with process changes. I would not change heat treatment until you know how why when the crack occurred. and a simple metallographic examination will provide plenty of evidence of that.

However, that will cost more to get actual lab work done than to just take free advice to change your process without knowing the root cause of the crack.

PS; you didnt say were the bars cold drawn? Eddy current tested? Turned and Polished? Ground and polished? UT tested for intenal cracks? Purchased on the basis of lowest price? Didn't say oif the cracks were transverse or longitudinal, straight or jagged, radial into the bar, or stepped. So much is missing here, I hope for your sake that you do some more work on root cause identification before committing to your "Nitriding" process.

Milo

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#10
In reply to #9

Re: Surface Crack Internal Crack in En19 Shaft (18 mm dia)

06/07/2011 3:15 AM

GA Milo. Suggest to scan for spell-check for happy reading.

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#12
In reply to #10

Re: Surface Crack Internal Crack in En19 Shaft (18 mm dia)

06/07/2011 11:45 AM

Thanks. My typing is not a strength.

The frustrating thing that I have with spell check is that it usually doesn't know my technical terms, and so it becomes as much of a chore as just answering. But your advice is sound and I will follow it.

Milo

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#11
In reply to #9

Re: Surface Crack Internal Crack in En19 Shaft (18 mm dia)

06/07/2011 5:05 AM

VGA, Milo. i, for one, was waiting for your expert view.

This is quintessential R&D. Going deeper and deeper until you find the root cause.

Ahem....Root cause... reminds me of a very effective story in one of my management courses...please bear with me....

Joe was suffering from a severe headache 24/7. He was contemplating suicide, and went to several doctors... no use ... until he met this specialist. The doctor said, "Joe, the good news is I can cure your headaches.
The bad new is that it will require castration. You have a very rare
condition, which causes your testicles to press on your spine and the
pressure creates one hell of a headache. The only way to relieve the pressure is to remove the testicles."
Joe was shocked and depressed. He wondered if he had anything to live
for. He had no choice but to go under the knife. When he left the hospital, he was without a headache for the first time in 20 years, but he felt like he was missing an important part of
himself.
As he walked down the street, he realized that he felt like a
different person.
He could make a new beginning and live a new life.
He saw a men's clothing store and thought, That's what I need... a
new suit."
He entered the shop and told the salesman, "I'd like a new suit."
The elderly tailor eyed him briefly and said, "Let's see... size 44
long."
Joe laughed, "That's right, how did you know?" "Been in the business
60 years!" the tailor said.
Joe tried on the suit. It fit perfectly.
As Joe admired himself in the mirror, the salesman asked, "How about a
new shirt?"
Joe thought for a moment and then said, "Sure".
The salesman eyed Joe and said, "Let's see, 34 sleeves and 16 neck."
Joe was surprised, That's right, how did you know?"
"Been in the business 60 years.
Joe tried on the shirt and it fit perfectly.
Joe walked comfortably around the shop and the salesman asked, "How
about some new underwear?" Joe thought for a moment and said, "Sure."
The salesman said, "Let's see... size 36."
Joe laughed, "Ah ha! I got you, I've worn a size 34 since I was 18
years old."
The salesman shook his head, "You can't wear a size 34. A size 34
would press your testicles up against the base of your spine and give
you One hell of a headache."
New suit - $400
New shirt - $36
New underwear - $6
Second Opinion - PRICELESS

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#13
In reply to #11

Re: Surface Crack Internal Crack in En19 Shaft (18 mm dia)

06/07/2011 11:47 AM
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#14
In reply to #11

Re: Surface Crack Internal Crack in En19 Shaft (18 mm dia)

06/08/2011 6:01 AM

Second Opinion - PRICELESS

Today I received a mail from a friend stating that- PRICE and WORTH have similar meaning then why PRICELESS and WORTHLESS have not?

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#15
In reply to #14

Re: Surface Crack Internal Crack in En19 Shaft (18 mm dia)

06/08/2011 8:04 AM

Every language has its quaint ones...

"Fat" and "Slim" mean opposite things, but "Fat chance !" means the same as a "Slim chance"

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