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AC Spindal Motor

06/17/2011 7:35 PM

Folks,

I have a European packaging machine driven with an 11kW, 3 Phase, 380 volt, 100hz AC motor. The motor is controlled by a SA022 Control Technique VFD designed for a AC Spindal Motor. The motor has an integral resolver which provides feed back to the SA022 VFD.

What is different between a standard AC induction motor an a AC Spindal Motor?

Has anyone done an upgrade replacing these motors.

Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

Allan

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#1

Re: AC Spindal Motor

06/17/2011 7:44 PM

Spindle (note the spelling) motors are typically designed to run at the higher speeds expected of many spindle applications, standard motors are not. Although a VFD can make a standard motor run at a higher speed, above the base design speed of the motor you start losing torque. So for instance if you have a motor designed for 50Hz at 380V and you use the VFD to spin it up to 100Hz, the V/Hz ratio is now 1/2 of what the motor was designed for and you now have LESS torque at the shaft. The same motor designed for 380V 100Hz has FULL torque at the same speed. Conversely in order to get the higher amount of torque with a standard motor, the motor would have to start out as being twice the power rating of the 100Hz designed spindle motor (actually more than that, I'm just keeping it simple for the sake of making the point).

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: AC Spindal Motor

06/18/2011 5:20 PM

The same power at the same speed is the same torque, so if you use a 50Hz winding you have more torque at the lower speeds e.g. 2X torque at 50Hz compared to same power motor with 100Hz winding.

This is commonly used to achieve a wider constant power range on spindles, needed on many cutting, grinding etc machines.

So, the 'twice the power rating of the 100Hz' statement needs clarifying as I understand what you're trying to say but you've muddled up your explanation a bit.

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: AC Spindal Motor

06/19/2011 3:03 AM

I have never been impressed with the constant power operation of an AC induction machine. The pullout torque rapidly becomes very close to the running torque.

It just does not behave the same as the constant power range of a DC machine.

So, I prefer to use a 100Hz machine (or whatever is required) in the constant torque range. With a motor designed to be used on a VFD the requirement to be 50 Hz, or 60 Hz no longer exists. It could be wound for 77.7 Hz if one wished.

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#9
In reply to #3

Re: AC Spindal Motor

06/23/2011 8:41 AM

Well, this is judged by the motor's rated pullout torque and multiplying by the square of the fraction representing the actual voltage compared to theoretical constant torque value.

So, if you have pullout torque of 200%, and 400V 100Hz on a 400V 50Hz motor, then ½² = ¼,, so ¼ x 200% = 50% pullout same as constant power torque. Then, you are in a stall situation, as you say. If your motor is nearer 300% po, then you have a little in hand although the motor is less 'stiff' i.e. slips more on load increasingly above 50% speed.. Only fractional power motors seem very weak in the way you describe, in my experience.

I've seen plenty of spindle applications using this and also 87Hz connected motors to get the higher speeds and therefore a much wider speed range, because the higher torque this offers is vastly more than selecting a constant torque range machine. Even if you could only rely on, say 45% torque, at double the speed, this then would be 90% of the constant torque alternative increasing to 200% at half speed! When many applications need increasing torque at lower speeds (constant power), this seems a better 'fit' to me.

Maybe I misunderstand you but this seems to me to be a no-lose selection. Of course, you should take other mechanical considerations into account in your selection - e.g. balance needed, fan noise (consumption), frame size, bearings etc into account.

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#10
In reply to #9

Re: AC Spindal Motor

06/24/2011 11:20 AM

In my experience with center unwind stands (100 to 500Hp Range) I keep finding people trying to use an AC machine and VFD to replace a DC machine and DC drive which had a 4:1 constant power range (300 to 1200 rpm) with a 200% OL torque through the constant power range (ie: 200% of the equivalent torque at the higher rpm).

If the DC machine was rated 300Hp 300/1200 rpm 200% OL for 60 seconds, the AC machine usually shows up in a 1000 + Hp frame size with a NP that shows it actually only uses a small fraction of the constant power region.

There are applications where DC system still shine, especially in center unwind stands where the 4 quadrant operation is essentially all regen. (There are more application reasons beyond actual motor NP ratings.)

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#4
In reply to #2

Re: AC Spindal Motor

06/19/2011 4:28 AM

The electrical engineering design for this AC motor on a packaging machine seems very "flakey".

The motor as stated previously is a 3 PH, 11KW, 380V, AC Spindle Motor.

The the maximum speed reference to the VFD is < 5 volts so they are running a 3000 RPM on 100hz at 1/2 speed. When tested at the normal running speed the reference to the Control Technique drive is 1.6 Volts which equtes to 480 RPM.

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#8
In reply to #4

Re: AC Spindal Motor

06/20/2011 11:09 AM

How the input is scaled needs to be confirmed, it is easily re-configured in the drive and may even be a current loop reference.

Also, please confirm the Output Frequency in the drive display.

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#5
In reply to #1

Re: AC Spindal Motor

06/19/2011 4:34 AM

Many thanks for your feedback, I understand all of what you are saying, it is just that i cannot understand the requirement in this application.

The AC motor has been measureed with a speed refrence of 1.6 V to the VFD wjich means the motors is running at 480 rpm based 0n 0-10V = 0-3000 RPM ar 100 hz.

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#6
In reply to #5

Re: AC Spindal Motor

06/19/2011 8:39 AM

Your two last comments are not clear at all!

1st: What is the name plate of the motor stating regarding the Frequency and speed(rpm) ? Freq. = 100Hz and the rpm =~6000 rpm (==One pair of poles) or =~1500rpm (2 pairs of poles) ?? or is it 50Hz etc.

The designers of the machine will not spend extra to put a highly rated (rpm) motor just for fun. it will cost them more(!?).

You can check the VFD unit to read the Frequency sent to the motor (and therefore the rpm) and have a good idea of how it is running ... rather than give the sgnal values controlling the VFD output: We do not know how the final convertion inside the VFD is set (Parameters). This is done by selecting the display mode on the unit (pressing some buttons ...).

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#7

Re: AC Spindal Motor

06/20/2011 5:28 AM

If the "soll" signal at the frequency drive input is about 1.6 volt, than this has nothing to see with the output frequency that the spindle motor gets.

Inside the frequency drive, there is software that can rescale the input signal.

Per example, if you have an input signal from a pick up sensor between lets say -2.0 and +1.5 volts dc, than it is perfectly possible to use this signal for a speed regulation between 30 and 40 Hz.

The actual output frequency you can only verify at the display of the drive or by measuring the RPM of the motor. (if you know the number of motor poles …)

The differency between a spindle motor and a normal motor:

- spindle motors are designed to hold the shaft torque constant, for a much wider frequency span. This means at 10 Hz you get the nominal output torque, but also at 200 Hz you get the nominal output torque.

- because your input voltage is limited to 400V, the output of a frequency drive is also limited to 400V. In a normal motor the ratio voltage/frequency is kept constant by the frequency drive, to obtain nominal output torque. This means at 400 V @ 50 Hz, but also 1600 V @ 200 Hz. Unfortunally the frequency drive will limit the output voltage to the input voltage (400 V in this example).

So above the 50 Hz the ratio voltage/frequency will decrease, and this results in a decrease of the motor flux and a decrease of the nominal output torque.

- The solution for this problem is to build a motor with a winding that is made for 100 V@50 Hz.. At 100V@50Hz the motor has its normal magnetical flux.

If I increase the output frequency of the drive to 150Hz, the output voltage will also increase to 300V, the ratio voltage / frequency will still be constant, AND the frequency drive can deliver the 300V output voltage because it is lower than the 400 V supply voltage.

- in this case the motor gives nominal output (shaft) torque at a speed that is 3 times the nominal motor speed. Because output power equals to speeds times torque, the motor output power @ 150Hz will 3 times the power @ 50Hz.

- Conclusion, at a higher frequency, on can get more power out of a smaller motor. This means on can make a smaller machine with the same performance.

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